鴉PieFedYou must design an icon for a save function that can be easily understood by anyone in the future. What does that icon look like to you?
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hornywarthogfart@sh.itjust.works
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We reached the point (some time ago) where the save icon being a floppy disk makes absolutely no sense to anyone born after a certain time. We could choose a more modern media format and use an icon of that instead, but we would run into the same problem once that media becomes obsolete.
What is a good icon for the function of saving something that can easily be understood by anyone regardless of language or the march of time?
Edit: I know it's not really an answerable question and is hard but the question is what would *you* come up with if tasks to design an icon. Given the constraints of the question, what are your best shots at coming up with something that fills the requirements and why do you thing it would work?
A vault.
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Floppy disk. Fight me.
Agreed. It's the tried and true icon.
It's like on discord, what's the symbol to make a call? An old school telephone handset. People know what it means. It's a universal symbol
That's a fair answer. There is nothing saying the floppy disk can't work. By sticking with a symbol that has no actual bearing on function (from the perspective of the future people) you've abstracted the concept of saving away from natural language. However, you still place a computational burden on those future people/aliens/whatever where they need to be taught what that icon means.
It's a floppy disk. Which is the universal icon for saving, the same way a red light is a universal symbol for "stop".
You underestimate the power of arbitrary symbols. Welcome to all of human semiotics.
No I get that but I'm asking that given what we know about symbols and how we process information, what would be a better icon that can indicate save without having to be taught? There is clearly no right answer here but is it even possible to create something that would work? Things like rain or clouds we can do because there we can see examples. Is there anything that indicates saving we could come up with?
Probably not. We use a kebab or a hamburger to mean "tap here for a menu" for some reason
The symbol is meant to represent line items on a menu. It's referred to as "hamburger" because it's whimsical, Leland.
This little exchange makes my point beautifully.
But we did. We used a 3 1/2 floppy disk, which only made sense referentially very briefly (after it took over from 5 1/4 floppies, but before all the saving was handled by a hard drive), and then that became the convention.
You're asking if there's a referential equivalent you could do now. You could do a little cloud or whatever else, but it wouldn't be any less "taught", because the teaching happens, like any other UI iconography, by having a bit of text next to it in a menu or a tooltip and then it becoming an arbitrary icon that just means that thing.
The point of the icon referencing something (star for bookmarks, a down arrow into a little box for download and a puzzle piece for extensions in my Firefox bar right now) is to make it easier to remember later because there is some context that connects the visual to the functionality. It's not necessarily to make it so that I don't have to learn what the functionality is in the first place and just intuit from the visual. That just happens because I have decades of knowledge about what the functionality in browser is supposed to be and what the arbitrary convention for certain functionality across other apps ends up being.
Your difficulty here is the qualifier "better". We can create a different icon. A more modern icon. A cooler icon. But there is not a better icon, not until fewer people understand the floppy means save than those who have no idea what it is. And because it's self-reinforcing ("the save icon is a floppy disk because floppy means save"), that's not likely in my estimation.
don't change the floppy :( once nobody speaks of it, it truly dies
Not quite dead yet. This seismic survey ship I was 9n fairly recently.... we had generated the navigational data, and needed to feed it into the ships autopilot. This was done via floppy.\
Yes, it was a relatively old ship (late 90's, I think), but there are plenty older ones around. And even when refurbishing a ship, they often leave the autopilot alone.
Yeah I probably should have qualified that with, "unless you're a municipal/city/state transportation system or in maritime."
Or pretty much anywhere in the manufacturing sector.
Plenty of products you use on a daily basis, especially processed foods, are being cranked out on equipment controlled by PLC's from the 1980's or earlier.
Don't worry, your wife still will.
How are there so many people ITT who genuinely don't even understand what OP is asking and are arguing about something else completely that they thought up in their head like whether we should do away with the floppy icon because it confuses people now or if their youngsters know what a floppy is or if they do or if there's a better icon to us now that can represent saving.
None of those are anything to do with OP really.
What OP is asking is if in 10000 years the next human civilization after our collapse that has no concept of computers and probably no electricity or industry nor potentially any grasp on our language or alphabet stumbles upon a functioning computer from our civilization, how do we tell them which button is the save button, when all shared symbolic context has been lost?
Consider the same question but for radioactive waste, how do we ward off potential future pre-industrial human civilizations from our nuclear waste sites to stop them dying to radiation poisoning for possibly tens of thousands of years until they develop an understanding of radiation and the equipment to measure it? Well, something like this maybe:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-term_nuclear_waste_warning_messages
Though maybe given this thread, we should instead be considering how to convey very simple abstract questions to the pre-industrial people on lemmy.world instead, especially when it appears they have only a rudimentary, GPT2-esque grasp on language.
I am also very perplexed by the responses in this whole thread. These are very basic drills that are also done in design based classes. It’s just a thought experiment.
I was gonna fight you because "or if there's a better icon to us now that can represent saving." Is a reasonable interpretation of what OP said.
But then I continued to read more comments and wow people just like... Explaining the floppy disk is wild.
This is not a place of honor, no honored dead is interred here.
Now I want to see the original sign.
Thanks!
k
I've noticed youngsters where I work sometimes no longer know what "saving a document is", as they only know google doc style sync.
So I'd go with a send button: send to harddrive. Usually represented with an triangle/arrow.
I think that's more of a UX issue than an issue of iconography, though. Could-synched stuff synchs in the background, so there's just no interaction involved.
I don't know how far down that road it'll go, but I wonder if eventually the concept of "checkpointing" in games becomes more frequent than old document saving and that's how we think about version control going forward.
We'll see the problem with this is symbols are inherently contextual to culture
There is no correct icon, the floppy disk is at least popular enough to be used essentially forever
Alternatives would be making an SVG that mocks a HDD, or an open drawer with an arrow pointing in
For long term (1000 years) I think an open drawer is best especially with an arrow. It suggests putting something in, loading can be the inverse
So people used to store stuff in physical space like drawers? You mean if they needed something they had to physically go there and get it out of something else? Man, early humans were crazy.
Untill we move to SSD.
We should just start manufacturing NVME drives to look like floppy disks.
I feel like the shape mostly doesn't matter, as most people will never see or physically interact with an NVME drive. It's just "the files are inside the computer."
It won't solve anything, but we should do it for fun, though.
Probably something like this. Seems self-explanatory to me at least.
For English speakers I could see this working, but I imagine the letters would have to change per language which would be suboptimal.
I assumed it's sinister for left turn but then I got confused why L was turning right (is L supposed to be for leave?)
Save and Load (?)
Just keep using the disk icon.
Just because the original reference is outdated doesn't mean it's useless; the symbolism carries over. Changing it to the sake of future-proofing makes no sense because everybody already understands it now, and that knowledge will carry forward into the future. It has become the standard, even if it makes no sense, it even if it never made sense.
Horsepower is still used to refer to engine strength, even though nobody uses horses. Qwerty is still the keyboard default even though it's not optional, because typewriters had settled on that standard ages ago. The human skull symbol is commonly used as a shorthand to indicate a substance is poisonous, because it has been for a long time. Even the term "dial" when referring to phone calls is still commonly used, even though nobody but your great-grandmother still even owns a rotary phone.
Tldr; If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Are you going for just updating? If so, I'd leave it alone. Culturally it's ubiquitous and doesn't require changing.
If you're thinking more along the lines of a save version of the whole "how do we ensure future people know nuclear waste resides within" then you're gonna run into the same problems they do, symbols change meaning over time. But if I had to pick something that may be obvious to most people, my vote is a scribe and a pen. Most cultures have writing, most cultures with writing save information by writing it down. There are problems, obviously, but if you gotta pick one, that's my vote until I hear a better suggestion.
And for what it's worth, with the nuclear waste sitch, my vote first the atomic priesthood
Assuming people still know what a folder is, the most obvious would be a folder with an arrow going into it, like:
I know I'm wrong for thinking this but it looks too much like open to me.
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GTA2 save point.\
"Halleluja, another soul saved"!
Spot on 😁
lmao, well done!
"I have updated the save icon from a floppy disk to a CD-ROM."
What are you doing when you save something? You’re keeping it in its current state, held in stasis, to be retrieved later. Maybe using freezing imagery (like a snowflake) could get that concept across, and it would retain its meaning over time.
Another way to think of saving is storage - putting something in a convenient location for later access. A safe might be a useful image, but it implies security. Other types of storage devices seem too likely to change with time. Maybe a pocket? If there was a way to graphically represent putting something in your pocket that would be a fairly universal and durable image.
Your second sentence makes me think an equal sign would be appropriate.
An equation does not need to be identical on both sides, just equal in value.
Also both sides don’t need to be unchanged. In fact mostly they don’t.
= does not convey persistence in any way for me (& I guess most people).
Or just the hard drive by itself. Is a platter drive old fashioned these days?
Also a safe would be a decent choice.\
Why do you want to move a piece of paper onto an old style record player?
I mean I'm in my 40s now, but we still have spread *sheets*, Word *documents*, and web *pages* don't we?
And I think everyone still knows hard drives are at least *a thing*? I can buy people in their early 30 or under never used a floppy, but we've all used some form of hard disk.
Also, I noticed no argument of the safe suggestion, and I hazard a guess many fewer of us have used an actual safe than a hard disk, especially a safe with a big swinging lock, but I think the majority could get the intent of putting something in a safe. Perhaps an open safe with an arrow going in if we want to be grandiose about it? 😉
A safe would make more sense for an encrypted partition or directory
You're asking for an abstract indicator of a concept. You might as well be trying to draw 'dignity'.
Everything else will become obsolete with time, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. We have countless icons that have long since been separated from their original meanings. The need for it to be intuitive is when the concept is new, not as it changes.
Yeah you're right, but I think it will be interesting to hear what people come up with. It's similar to the nuclear waste warnings. Wikipedia Nuclear Waste Warnings
How about something like that? Symbolises data to device.
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Yeah, I just used what icon was handy. I mean if you were to do a more serious attempt,I'd draw it more like a concrete box, myself. Or more specifically concrete slots that line up with the numbers, driving home the point that it is a more permanent solution.
This is what I was thinking of, but no binary and just a square cardboard box with the flaps open.
Just an arrow pointing into a box.
I think this assumes no knowledge and transcends culture and tech.
Maybe it's just me but this looks like we're putting it somewhere to forget. Like junk lol
Anything designed to represent the save action will become obsolete eventually because the nature of saving data changes.
Originally you saved writing by inscribing it on a wax tablet, then paper, then removable disk, then hard disk, then solid state, now the cloud.
I would say the most times less will be pencil on paper as it's the most basic method of recording.
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But that's already considered to mean an edit action
"Upload to Wetware"
This is how ancient Egyptians prepared their dead
Uplifting my mood
I'm pressing it.
Interesting concept, attempting to indicate something entering the brain/head/statefulness. I wonder if we could generalize it further so that race of underground mole-people would understand it as well (e.g. not a species-specific head).
The cloud is someone else's brain?
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To me it's a bit too much like download/upload. Though I guess depending on the context that's sort of like load/save.
I like it! No need to know the language or anything. Things collect in basins like rain in bowl-shaped rocks so even without our current level of technology it would still have some indication of saving/gathering.
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Assuming that I can't rely on real life's ubiquitous floppy disk icon, I think something with a bookshelf is probably my best bet. An arrow pointing to the bookshelf for save, away for load. Bookshelves can be recognisable as pretty small icons and a physical book is extremely broadly understood. It may eventually fail if everyone moves to e-readers, but I think that's a long way off
Down arrow pointing to a horizontal line.
You mean the scroll lock?
Yeah similar to that.
Funny, I guess this came about from the need to visualize downloading something. But we got lazy and just call everything save if it's small enough (like an image)
A pencil writing on paper.
Assuming we're talking about "anyone" including a post-collapse society or an alien race that never invented the floppy, and sufficiently advanced to competently use a computer. The most basic means of recording information is to use an implement to create marks on a surface. You can draw lines in the sand, or indentations on a clay tablet, or scratches on a lead sheet, or lines on a paper, the method usually involves a flat surface and a pointy object leaving visible lines. The symbolic representation of a pencil and paper is sufficiently generic that most people will associate it with committing information to a non-volatile medium.
That’s “Edit”
Or “New”? Fuck
Yeah I think something along those lines is probably what we'd end up with. We couldn't do something that is truly universally understood to mean save but I think we'd get a large percentage of users who would make the connection instinctively.
The word "save" localized appropriately.
This would work as long as the device the user was using adopted localization properly and all applications supported all languages. Consider also there are people who can speak a language but aren't able to read it. Those are a small percentage but they exist.
The goal of this would be to come up with an icon that would be most recognizable as save to the most people and future people after languages have changed.
A piggy bank
Almost none of our symbols make sense and are disconnected from their origin. That's a good thing. Without detachment of the signs from their reference we can't have abstract thought and language. The letter D comes from an icon for fish. But it went from indexical reference to icon, to symbol. And then we changed its shape over time to what it is today, and some people started using it for the alveolar plosive. The same has happened for every single symbol we recognize and use, alphabet or not. It's all arbitrary and it doesn't matter if we don't use actual floppy disks anymore.
This is all true but given the charge of creating a new icon that would be the "most recognizable" as save to the most people the first time they see it, what would that look like. The question is impossible to answer with a single thing as it's too vast and everything becomes meaningless eventually. But given everything we know of languages, the brain, how we perceive things, what would be a *better* icon we could design?
You can't design a better icon. That's not how symbolism works. The most recognizable symbol for save is the one we are using now. As designing something new, by default, it would not be recognized by anyone but the designer since use defines meaning. Until it is used it won't be recognized by anyone.
Edit: like, think of the play icon and its meaning in media control. It was born as an indicator of the direction a reel to reel tape player was moving. It still holds that meaning for digital streaming today despite the virtual extinction of tape players. Its use defines its meaning, detached from its origin and despite the obsolescence of its reference.
Not necessarily. I can see an icon with some randomly-sized vertical lines and think of rain. Or an icon might have a mountain peak silhouhette that generates a random mountain peak. Symbolism doesn't work in the sense we can't just design something but I'd argue we could probably come up with something that is at least indicative of saving to people regardless of language. Obviously the floppy fills that for now but if we could go back and drive the adoption of the icon, what icon could we create that would most indicate saving to people regardless of technology.
(I understand there isn't a correct answer to this, just wanted to read people's thoughts on ideas)
A friend was a design teacher and he taught me that design uses existing symbolism and iconography. But you can't control what people will ultimately use your design for. The babadook for example, was a monster intended to cause fear in a horror movie. However, a clerical error by Netflix and an over imaginative tumblr user, turned it into a queer icon that is now widely recognized on internet culture. Of course you can sort of imbue intent and predict use of design to some extent, but humans have an arbitrary side that makes it hard to say something would be a better icon for an abstract concept.
Thank you, I appreciate this response to my comment. It's given me a wider perspective on the topic in general. It's almost like that arbitrary side is what keeps the wobble in humanity's path which forces us to continue advancing and understanding the world, never becoming complacent.
Two types:
1) "Save state" like in video games or word processors - For saving state in current application - There is hard disc / cloud saving
2) "Save file" like in web browsers - This is for creating a copy of a file you found and want to keep - There is hard disc / cloud saving
In both cases you will want to signify saving to disc (this could look like a thick round disc) versus saving to the cloud
This would work for the foreseeable future I think. At some point tech changes and although we could just update the icon as that happens I'm wondering if we can design something that is at least resistant to becoming obsolete (like a floppy or even hdd/ssd) and is mostly recognizable to most people. It's an impossible question but there could be some cool ideas that come up out of this post.
I'm not sure if anybody said it yet, but I think a simple figure embracing something would be pretty universal for a "save" and then delete would be that figure rejecting something by putting his hands up and turning its head.
That is too abstract.
Seems pretty easy...
You need an icon of a paper with text on it, an arrow pointing from the paper down to a larger box.
A recycle bin?
Not if there is a separate icon where the arrow points up away from the box for "Open"
Maybe something like a document going into a safe? As things are increasingly digital, both of those technologies become somewhat less relevant. On the other hand, one could go with 保存 on a button. Chinese and Japanese speakers will instantly know what it does. Others could learn. At some point, kanji are just slightly more complex squiggles to represent an increasingly non-concrete thing.
A hammer and chisel with a stone slate… some combination of that
If the share icon is a box with an up arrow, maybe a box with a down arrow could mean save?
I would merge the idea of saving and bookmarking, because basically they mean "I want to be able to retrieve this"
☆ (unsaved)
★ (saved)
As a symbol, since the humanity is traveling, the stars are used to find what they are looking for or find it back (typically the North Star). And I'm pretty sure it will stay meaningful for a galactic civilisation.
I like this. Many apps are moving away from save altogether and just automatically save for you, even my local, no-cloud apps auto save when any change is detected. A bookmark for easy retrieval makes sense.
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