鴉PieFedWhat is you opinion on the parents who tell their kids to "keep your head down" and "don't cause troubles" such as "being a dissident" or "going to protests"?
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This is literally my parents. They told me to stop criticizing the people in power, even going as far as saying I shouldn't criticize the government of my *former* country. I don't even have citizenship in my former country anymore, not sure how I could even get in trouble for criticizing is effecively a foreign country to me. (I'm talking about PRC btw).
My mom told me to "just focus on improving your own life and stop worrying about things like you can't control like politics" (as in, both the politics of my *former* country and the politics of my *current* country)
Am I in the wrong here? Should I just keep quiet and not say anything so that I don't "get in trouble"?
You have to do you, OP, and accept potential consequences, good, bad, neutral. You may want to sit with that for a while before deciding.
Seeing that the PRC has secret, illegal police in the US, are known to go after Chinese in the US, coupled with the US not being a country of laws...well, you do you. Just don't do it in ignorance.
Well, Fuck...
Is there any EU citizen willing to do marriage? (for the immigration visa 👀)
/s I'm kidding, nobody even likes me lol
LOL, you and me both. I'm too old to make any radical changes, but I've encouraged my kid to finish a University degree that will get him a job outside of the country. I think if I married for emmigration purposes, I'd end up in Hungry or something. Out of the pan and into the fire.
There are secret police here as well
Source?
https://m.hvg.hu/itthon/20221101_kinai_rendorors_budapest
though it can be questionable if this place can be considered the EU..
https://www.newsweek.com/secret-chinese-police-stations-europe-ccp-dissidents-activists-prc-1797104
Oh!
I thought you were saying the EU had secret police XD
Im tired brain broke
No worries either way, asking for a source is always a good idea :)
Oh... *OH*
Their advice is good in this very specific context as the PRC is a bit... special, see other comments. They don't limit their reach to just Chinese citizens either, my interpretation of what has happened in Canada with the secret police stations is that they might consider all ethnically Chinese people fair game
For most instances though, methinks valid constructive criticisms toward the government is a good way to keep democracy going, and unfortunately this process sometimes involve protesting. I can't make decisions for others when a social cause is more important than their own safety, but to each their own at that point so...
I definitely disagree. I just took my son to a protest last weekend. He is 12. I thought it was important for him to understand civic responsibility.
Well it kinda depends. If criticizing the government could get you disappeared, then yeah, it's logical for your parents to discourage that so they don't lose you. It's possible that they lost someone in your old country because of that and they don't want to have that happen again.
On the other hand, if your new country has freedom of speech enshrined in law (and that law seems to be followed) then yeah, it would be silly not to criticize if you have criticisms.
Your mom has a point, focusing on things you cannot control might not be the best use of your time. If you disagree, then that's fine, that's your decision. I know that personally, I can get fixated on politics which will make me depressed, anxious, and overall shitty feeling. I need to carefully balance awareness/protest and what I can reasonably hope to achieve with my general quality of life.
I guess this means your parents are from China too? If yes, then they grew up in a country were demonstrating against the government gets you rolled over by tanks. They have been taught that politics is not something for the people, the party takes care of it for them and they should just focus on being good hard working citizens. So, I would think their behavior is a mix of fearing for your life, which they value way more than politics, and an ingrained lack of faith in the people being able to change politics.
Consider this bias and make your personal choice, especially if you're legally an adult.
We're always fighting the last war. Take their input seriously but also understand that the world you live in is different from the one they grew up in. They're trying to teach you how to stay safe under a dictatorship, they don't want your life to be ruined because you got mad about a thing once in college.
This , people who criticise govenrment in a dictator led country dissapear , lose job opportunities , are suicided by 2 gunshots to the back of th head etc
Sort of like how the CIA tried to blackmail MLK into suicide and then had him killed when he refused to back down?
How many non-capitalist countries has the US bombed, overthrown through black ops, sanctioned or embargoed?
The US is every bit as bad fascist Russia, but Americans are so brainwashed that they refuse to see it. Even if you tell Americans about how the US infected black men with syphilis and forbid the doctors from treating it, Americans will just bury their head in the sand
Yeah you shit out that angy whataboutism
Show that western pig who's boss!
Agree , america bad ... but noone mentioned anything about america before u did , we're talking 3rd world dictatorsh... ohhhhh waiiiit
Two powerful countries doesn't like peoole like me and we got a commenter (the person you replied to) debating which is worse 🙄
Mate , i live in a third world shithole where our thinly veiled dictator does as he pleases ... if you live west of the Gdansk/Thessaloniki line please chill out , you have more rights than any of us here
It's hard to say without knowing what country you're in now. PRC is an undemocratic system to be embraced, escaped, or endured, but so are PRK, Iran, and a bunch others
OTOH, Canada or the USA were designed on the assumption that you'd agitate for the form of government. If you're in either one, especially if you're a citizen, you should definitely argue for the government you want.
The rest of the world is an interesting mix of "started undemocratic, embraced democracy" to "started democratic, embraced autocracy."
I didn't want to say because I'm not sure if this violates rule 6 of this community, but I'm currently in the USA as a Derivative Citizen from my mother's Naturalization when I was under 18, which make me automatically a US Citizen. My father and my grandmother (who lives with us, in the USA) are PRC Citizens with legal US permanent residency.
But, to the Mods: This question is aimed at the general audience around the world, so it's not intended to be "US Politics".
I'm guessing maybe my mother didn't want my father and other relatives in China to get in trouble? 🤔
But I don't think they are looking at some anonymous Lemmy account, right?
"Permanent" residency just means there is not currently a specific intent to revoke their status. It does not mean that they are immune from the immigration witch-hunt currently sweeping the US. More than a few "permanent residents" have been deported, most for simply pissing off someone empowered to use deportation in retaliation.
Your account is *currently* "anonymous". But everything you post is online, and documented forever. What happens 6 months down the road, when your anonymity is pierced, and your name is permanently tied to your past acts? Have you said or done anything that would lead the head narcissist-in-charge to think you don't like him?
My advice would be to focus your activist energy on long-term, local issues. Lobby for public transportation, school funding, homeless shelters, victim assistance, bike paths, free clinics, legal aid, Habitat for Humanity, or any of a thousand other worthy causes with broad, positive effects for the community. You don't have to keep your head down, just stick it out where it will do the most good. We don't need more evidence of the current regime's malfeasance; we do need good people focused on what happens *after* they are out of office.
If there're family in the PRC, they could certainly be on the hook if you're spotted at events Beijing deems sensitive (things to do with Taiwan, Xinjiang, Tibet, the '89 Massacres, 66-77, etc.)
I'd also reckon that your family grew up either with direct experience of, or in the spectre of, the Cultural Revolution. The psychic damage of that can not be understated.
It' s also that the social contract in China is very different to that of the US and Anglophone/European culture countries.
There are valid, logical, reasons for your family's point of view. But it is also a viewpoint that is willing to tolerate a bad society in order for an adequate life personally.
There's very little upside to attending a protest in the PRC, and a *huge* downside (cfr. 1986). The calculation is different in the US, obviously, although Trump is potentially changing this as well. They're just using their past experience and they're trying to keep you safe.
You just need to make a decision for yourself, are you willing to go to a protest now, potentially be imprisoned, deported to China, or do you just focus on getting a job and hoping it blows over. In a lot of ways it's a prisoner's dilemma: if you're only a small group protesting, you'll be crushed and nothing will change. If everyone's protesting and organising some kind of resistance that can't be ignored, you can win. The tricky part is making everyone come to the same conclusion at the same time to maximise chances of success.
Keeping your head down just ensures they come for you a little later.
Schindler didn't criticize the people in power and it helped him save many lives.
Being effective is more important than being performative.
As a white cis-man with many friends who are vulnerable minorities, this is a serious concern for me. I don't use social media, all my political criticisms are here or some other anonymous format ("anonymous" is relative, but at least there's nothing subversive directly connected to my name). I *could* engage in overt civil disobedience, but if I keep my head down and blend in I have the means to shelter people if things really start escalating.
With ICE targeting protests, it makes sense.
Just sit quietly until they come for you. That is what I can hear those parents saying.
It’s tough because police in the US are becoming increasingly militarized and aggressive, even colleges have been tyrannical lately. Criticism of the regime is becoming risky and I can understand not wanting your kids hurt …….
But we still have free speech where I live (and we’re white, non-immigrant). Major politicians joined the protests, so I’m not too concerned. I told them that standing up for what is right is a good thing, however you have to accept the risk getting in trouble for it. In case that happens, I’ll be there for you.
Unfortunately I couldn’t persuade either of my teens to go and I was out of town. Even more annoying I have a prior commitment for the upcoming protest so we’ll probably miss that too
My concept of patriotism is a duty to criticize your country, so it can improve. Admittedly I say that from privilege and low risk
I tell my kid both.
Keep out of trouble so when you do cause trouble, no one will point at you and say "it's probably him like last time"
I teach him to question everything, even me, and I tell him when I was wrong about something, or got new information, or that I don't know something and we look it up.
I teach him to look at why someone is doing something if it seems weird, they probably have ulterior motives.
I teach him to cover his tracks and only steal from corporations, not your neighbors, or normal everyday working people. They work hard for their possessions, steal from the rich if you have to. And do it carefully and methodical, no reason to go to jail over something basic.
I teach him to stick up for those that can't defend themselves, and ask him regularly if he's being bullied and make sure he's not bullying anyone.
We have a deal if he sees any kid, even if he doesn't know them, not eating lunch to tell me so we can pack two next time.
He did something recently he wasn't supposed to and lost his switch for the weekend. I showed him how I caught him so he can be better and sneakier.
I'm not rich by any means, but he's more privileged than most, he's very humble and looks out for others as well.
I mentioned this to a teacher I had a group dinner with when we were introducing ourselves, she looked at me like I had 3 heads. I trust my kid, trouble will happen, no doubt, he will be prepared.
You don't realize how much you have to lose until you do. You could become homeless or deported if you get caught under this administration.
We're reaching a point where the government is deporting green card users for protesting against Israel's genocide. It won't be long until US Citizens get the same treatment. And don't think for a second that you'd be the only one punished. You could be dragging your entire family down with you.
So unless you're willing to become jailed, homeless, or deported, id listen to your parents.
My generations parents? The lead chip eating boomers that helped fuck america? Pass.
Are you the person who was born in China then moved while super young to the US? If I remember correctly a few posts back you were arguing for not watching to upset either country for your parents exact reasoning. It’s not hard to understand your immigrant family wanting to play it safe :)
If you’re and your family are US citizens and rarely travel to China there would be few repercussions from critique but what do you hope to achieve other than getting yourself onto a list?
For America, if you all are all full US citizens than you’re safer if you’re not. If anyone is not a citizen even a green card holder you should shut up yesterday.
Not a good one, that's for sure. Actually my parents are the exact same, monarchist bootlickers. When i shit talk the government in front of them, they always defend it as hard as possible and talk about how dangerous it is (It is, but that's literally part of the problem??)
Ffs, my dad literally had a co-worker ""disappear"" and he still defends the government. It's just always "thank god for what we have, we shouldn't get involved in politics"
As context, i've been a republican (for americans, i mean actual republican, not the US party.) from a pretty young age, and i still am. Which is why political debates between my family are always fun ;^)
Life is politics. Being apolitical is a political stance. There's no avoiding it.
Heh. I agree, i wish everyone else did, though ;^)
Wait, aren't you *in* Saudi Arabia right now?
From what I heard, it's worse than PRC, do you feel scared when talking about politics at home?
Like in PRC, the expectation would be prison / forced apology depending on severeity. Isn't dissent like a death sentence in Saudi Arabia? 😬
(I hope you are using Tor btw)
Yep, lol.
I almost never talk about my beliefs/criticism of the government, it's a risky game. Only the internet i'm actually free to say as much shit as i can (that is, *if* they don't find me lmao)
Wait, really? I never knew it was *that* lightweight in china. Yeah, it's flat out public execution (even torture depending in some cases) it's pretty fucked. Oil barons are absolute scum 🫠
Only on mobile i use orbot on almost all social media, but desktop's still a WIP on privacy. Learning about good opsec right now.
Some of the protestors of the Tianamen Square protests (those who survived anyways) were jailed, not executed. There were some who fled to the US, but later returned to China (I don't know what was the person thinking lol) but he didn't get arrested, he was denied entry and told to GTFO. Some were less lucky, and got disappeared.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests_and_massacre#Immediate_aftermath
I think its mostly due to international pressue. China was opening up trade at the time, and is now the largest trading partner to many countries. If they do too much oppression, they'll get sanctioned. So they try to do it more covertly and as less as possible to stay under the radar of foreign countries, but just enough oppression to keep the rulling party in power.
China used to be much worse during the Mao-era, its slowly improving. Homosexuality is now legal, transgender people are *tolerated* but they require surgery for official recognization. Its moving in the right direction. Who knows, maybe one day China will become a democracy.
Unfortunately that international pressure appears to be disintegrating before our eyes...
Yeah... fuck.
The pressure from the US is gone, since the US is now itself becoming dictatorial. So now it might work in reverse. Maybe trump is gonna try to make China to ban LGBTQ people, who knows. I mean, Russia and the US is getting so close now, and both countries are trying to ban LGBTQ people, this type of backwards policy could spread to China.
I hope the EU and other "progressive" trading partners of China is enough pressure to keep the CCP in check. (Seeing the AfD of Germany doubling in support, I'm kinda losing hope)
Well, that's interesting. thank you for the facts, i never knew that.
Yeah, saudi arabia was WAY worse like 7-13 years ago, but it's still horrible today. Maybe one day we'll become a democracy too, but i'd expect at least a century before the idea of that even becomes plausible lol.
They can try to avoid politics, but politics isn't going avoid them.
They are frightened because as immigrants, you are among the most vulnerable. HitlerPig is not respecting any laws, especially immigration laws. He's even trying to invalidate Birthright Citizenship, which is in the Constituion, and a concept that nearly every government in the world respects.
If he won't even respect the citizenship of someone who was born in America, he isn't going to respect the rights of ANYONE born somwhere else, no matter what their legal status is, given by some other president.
I have close friend who came here from Venezuela, got her green card, then became a citizen in 2024. She feels safe, because she's a citizen now, but i don't trust these MAGA Traitors to respect that.
He has been especially vocal about hating Venezuelans. I think its because we have granted special status to Venezuelans, but HitlerPig respects Maduro because he was able to turn his thriving successful country into a starving dictatorship, which is HitlerPig's greatest ambition.
Should probably specify, i am not an immigrant and have never set foot on american soil. We have our own clown show in my country, and is an absolute monarchy which is why i usually butt heads with basically everyone else lol. Republicanism is a very frowned upon (and illegal) ideology lol. But when's that stopped anybody?
No. Openly communicating (constructive) criticism is essential for improvement. As is protesting if matters are severe.
You can do both. A little personal life improvement here and a little societal improvement there.
Make no mistake, you're probably just a drop of water in an ocean. But: speaking about what matters to you, going to vote (if possible), engaging in shaping the society, just mere talking to others about stuff can already change so much. It can change minds or at least give incentives to think about. More importantly, it can connect you to other drops in the ocean, until you form a cup of water. Maybe a barrel next. And who knows, maybe one day enough to roll over the land like tsunami. Preferrably not deadly though. ;)
Keep fighting. Keep engaging. If we keep quiet and do nothing, we will let rule those, who know how to use this passivity to their advantage.
Only dead fish go with the flow.
If everyone dissents then dissent can not be crushed.
Never let a government scare you
And if you're at the point where they are killing or dissapearing dissenters then being quiet won't save you from the thought police, the only option then is to take as many of them with you as possible when they come for you.
I think it's important to stand up for what you believe in, but be aware of the dangers. Your parents probably tell you to keep your head down because their top priority is your safety
don't listen to them if it conflicts with what you feel is necessary, listen to your heart
you have to live with your self
edit: if you don't have a western nickname/alias that you go by in public, you should probably pick one up. find groups to protest with that are more westerns and avoid people with strong ties back to your parents homeland
I recently read an article by Bruce Levine who suggests that neurodivergent people are inherently anti-authoritian and the "Normie's" basically persecute and medicate us to maintain their version of order (I'm taking great liberty with my summary).
Its a concept that really piqued my interest as I grew up in the height of the ADD/ADHD diagnosis period and discovered through experience that almost everyone around me who were also labeled as having "learning difficulties" also shared my same sentiments on politics and the world in general. I think its the reason I related so well to Punk Rock music and never understood why anyone would listen to mainstream music.
Anyway, here is that article I was reading. Pretty sure I stumbled on it through Lemmy:
Why Anti-Authoritarians are Diagnosed as Mentally Ill, and How This Helps America’s Illegitimate Authorities Stay in Charge By Bruce Levine
It is clear that your parents are concerned for your safety and well being and I don't think that is an unreasonable position to have. Nobody wants to learn that their child was arrested or killed at a protest.
However. Great change does not come from folks staying safe and quiet at home.
I think many parents are struggling with this right now. On one hand it is our duty as citizens to do something about the world around us and not sit in complacency. On the other hand that's extremely dangerous to do in the current environment. I doubly respect this concern coming from Chinese folks who may have experience with having their speech suppressed in the past.
I support you being out in the streets and making a big noise with the rest of us. But I am not your family. If you were to die, or be taken prisoner, at a protest I would never know your name, only that you were my brother who gave his life for our cause. You would have my unending respect but in the end what I think of you shouldn't matter for you and yours.
Protesting is dangerous. More so now than ever before. Things worth doing are never easy but this, especially, is something that has a serious chance of ending or ruining your life. Make your peace with that, or avoid it if you can't. The world needs dissenters right now, but it needs ones that are well seated in their confidence.
At the end of the day though, no matter what happens, I can't be mad at anyone for prioritizing their personal safety. A revolution will require sacrifice but that isn't something that can be asked of someone. It is given freely or not at all. Your parents are asking you not to make a sacrifice.
Depends on the extent of how much you'd do and if you'd get noticed, really. Leverage being applied against you or your parents could occur, particularly to or via relatives in China, but only if you're deemed worth the effort. I wouldn't take that risk, personally, but that's a very specific, individual decision.
The US is another matter. Sure you'll go on a list but everyone's on a list of one kind or another, we're both on one for using Lemmy most likely.
Would there be any validity in your parents thinking your concerns about this are getting in the way of improving your own life?
i think they mean well but are misguided for the most part
While I can see where they're coming from. I'm sure they want you to just be safe.
That said, it's a terrible idea. How will anyone know how many people hate the current government, if no one speaks up about it. Sure, it can be risky, and the governments most worth speaking up against are usually the ones where it's the most dangerous, but they're usually the ones that more people hate.
Fucking (stupid|defeatist) . Any parent sayin shit like that should have their kids taken from them
It’s good advice for certain reasons and bad advice for others. It also depends on your situation, especially in these times in the US. If you’re a US citizen you might have more freedom to stand up for yourself and others than if you’re an immigrant.
Fuck them.
In the metaphorical way.
Don't have sex with them.
Don't listen to them, you'll regret it. No you're not in the wrong, they are, but everyone and their cousin will disagree because theyre cowards who don't want to make their lives harder.
Imagine living 100 years in Germany and being worried about politics and your mom going "just keep your head down".
Cowards. The lot of them.
By my estimation non-cowards are about 1/50.
As a parent, I'd say be politically active and don't get into trouble. There are strategic uses of getting into trouble like mass civil disobedience but it takes a lot more of non troublesome kind of political activity before getting there.