鴉PieFedI avoid approaching women in public because I believe it's inappropriate. My parents say that it's a necessary skill. Who is right?
The other day, my parents asked me (22M) if there were any women that I find attractive (I guess because they're paranoid about me being gay lol) and I told them yes, there's a fair number of women that I've seen in public that I've found attractive.
They asked me, "Do you talk to any of them?" and I said "No??? It's inappropriate to approach women in public unless you have business with them."
I told them that it is only appropriate for a man to talk to a woman he doesn't know when the social situation is explicitly designed for meeting strangers—dating apps, hobby groups, meeting friends of friends, etc. In my view, cold approaching women you don't know just because you're attracted to them is harassment.
My parents told me that I'm being ridiculous and making excuses because I'm nervous. They are adamant that I need to learn to approach women or else I will never find a partner. I told them that times have changed and this is disrespectful and potentially predatory behavior along the lines of unsolicited flirting and catcalling. Approaching women is a violation of their personal space and could make them feel very uncomfortable, especially if they feel like they don't have an easy way out.
My parents are almost 60 and they are very conservative, so they don't exactly follow progressive discourse, and I feel like they're super out of touch on this as a result. Particularly, my mom tends to strike up conversations with other women in public, and she's skeptical when I tell her that I can't do the same thing because I'm a man and would be viewed as a potential predator.
But I also don't get out much, which makes me second-guess how distorted my understanding of the social world is from reality. My parents are like a broken clock, and sometimes they DO have a point about something despite 90% of their opinions being insane. Maybe there is a more nuanced reality that I'm not picking up on.
So I wanted to ask here. Are my parents out of touch? Am I out of touch? Are we both wrong? I want to know your opinion.
Youre right that there are social rules saying you shouldn't. But when you're confident and have social skills you can break the rules.
If you trust yourself to have the social intelligence to pickup on signs of disinterest or irritation then go for it. Start with a casual chat and have 0 expectations. You'll feel if its right to ask for their number.
If you know you dont have good social skills then just play it safe and find some mixed groups and just try make friends with as many people as possible.
would it be more liken to a place where its easier to talk to them, like a bar setting.
It depends on the context but generally no.
The unsatisfying answer: you're both a little bit right.
You're correct that times have changed somewhat. But I think it's overkill to say that "approaching women at all unless you have business with them is disrespectful and borderline harassment".
Of course, context matters a lot. Don't bother women at their jobs, the bank is not a lady zoo. But in a social situation where you would expect to meet other people, it's fine to strike up a conversation with strangers or even ask them out.
However, by your own admission you don't get out much. So I'm assuming you don't get a lot of situations like bars or parties where this would happen. So I would try networking in your community, develop some hobbies, go to functions where you might meet someone in this manner.
As usual, the nuanced answer that doesn't oversimplify the complexities is the best one. Good answer.
I bet women 30-40 years ago would have loved to see this answer too. It's a good thing that the world has changed in this regard.
OP already accounted for social situations where you would expect to meet people, though, and his parents seem to think that he should be approaching people in other situations—like in a store, or on the street. I'd be very cautious about that.
Yeah, I specifically mentioned to my parents seeing an attractive employee stocking shelves in the grocery store, and they said that I should have approached her. She was clearly busy when I passed by her. I just kept my distance and casually thought, "Wow, there are plenty of fish in the sea. I'll definitely find one eventually, in a more appropriate social setting."
Not once did it cross my mind to strike up a conversation with a busy employee, but they insisted that I should have. In my mind, the fact that it's easy to find women that I find attractive is proof that I don't need to go out of my way for one. Attraction is not a quick time event; to me, it's a reminder of abundance, of just how many chances I have to find someone. I don't need to do silly stunts or disrupt busy people. I just need to keep creating social opportunities for it to happen organically, and eventually it will. I think my parents saying that I have to chat up every woman that I find attractive no matter where is silly and neurotic. I believe being patient and not stressing over every "missed opportunity" is the best way to go.
Besides, this thread is proof that I'm not ready for a girlfriend in the first place. It would be great for me to practice talking to strangers casually and making some friends first. That way, I can get comfortable talking to people in general and build my confidence.
Yeah, definitely don't bother people at work.
'you know, you shouldn't be in the frozen food section.. because you could melt all this stuff!'
Well yeah, I think that's part of what's being said. I would say that in a store, or cafe is totally fine. On the street is a little weird, but in most public places it's fine.
Also, if you're ugly or poor, it's always unwanted and disrespectful. Whether or not you're ugly or even poor is up to them not you, so you have no way to ever know beforehand.
Women in general have made this so fucking difficult for men that it really should be mandatory for them to approach us at this point just to avoid issues.
I'm married, but worried about my sons getting in trouble for ever trying to approach a woman outside of a bar at this point, it seems the only place where asking a girl out randomly is still allowed at this point.
I do want to be sympathetic, but I have to be honest in that this seems like incel rhetoric to me.
Women are under no obligation to accept the advances of any random person in public, and framing that as a "them" problem is super disrespectful.
Nobody said they have to accept the advances. I'm saying that by restricting those advances in general, it should put the onus on women to make the advance. They can't ask men to stop asking everywhere, then complain or be confused when men aren't asking them out and this is something that is actively happening right now.
I've never heard a woman complain or be confused about not being asked out by strangers.
It seems like your sources are a fair step into the manosphere, and you and your sons would have a lot to gain by distancing yourself from that kind of influence. Nothing is as unattractive as bitterness, and you are sounding dangerously close to bitter here, and your attitude will influence your sons approach to life and relationships.
It’s been showing up on YouTube a lot in my feed all of a sudden. Like, past two weeks… some blonde lady men’s advocate trying to explain male behavior to women. She’s an interesting watch, seems more often correct than not (anecdotally).
There was a woman actually complaining about not getting cat-called anymore too. That one was a jaw dropper; but people like that are absolutely out there.
The Dadvocate? Sounds like the YouTuber you’re describing.
You're using anecdotal data, I have actually heard a woman say "why won't he just ask me out" and that isn't useful data either.
It keeps coming up in dating studies though, which are useful, and frequently point out that women are complaining or confused about why it's happening.
I think you will find that "why won't he just ask me out" is not said about total strangers on the bus etc.
I dunno, this may just be my own sensibilities clouding reality, but I don't think the "onus" should be on anyone.
Men are more and more frequently getting in trouble for even just asking, which means they need to stop entirely or risk getting in trouble.
Either women take responsibility for asking the men out, or accept that they're not going to get asked out except by assholes who ignore the risks and are statistically upsetting a lot of women before they succeed.
Totally disagree on so many points. Women haven’t made things difficult, if anything men (historically) have done so because women haven’t been given a choice.
But the narrative that if you’re ugly or poor anything you do is unwanted is just not true. It’s an idea pushed by those in their parents basement justifying why they don’t have a girlfriend.
Teach your son that no means no, and when an uncomfortable woman might mean “no” without saying it, and he’ll be fine. Respect for the wishes of others takes care of 99.9999% of any trouble.
You're just plain wrong. I've seen men yelled at for asking politely in "acceptable" social situations.
You can pretend it's not happening, but that doesn't change the fact that it occurs regularly.
The problem isn't that No isn't being respected, it's that women are getting offended at even being asked.
If someone yelled about asking politely in an acceptable social situation, then they were wrong. That is not normal. It’s certainly not a regular occurrence.
That being said, given your prior comment, which just screams “incel, mgtow, etc”, I’m gonna go ahead and doubt you saw what you say you did.
It is a regular occurrence. Regular enough that it's been reflected in popular media for decades. They even make entire movies about "boy gets rejected by popular girl, boy transforms himself to win her over, boy decides he doesn't need her anymore because she's mean"
Are you honestly so naive that you think those initial rejections don't happen in real life? Everyone saw them at high school, and everyone saw them even more on social media when said girl spreads it around to cyberbully the boy even more. It's been more than 20 years since I was at high school, and even when we didn't have cellphones that shit still happened, and it didn't stop at University either.
So your examples are “things that happened to me in high school”, and “movies which are obviously real”?
Again I’m going to have to ask you to leave your basement and interact with real people. You are wrong.
> entire movies about “boy gets rejected by popular girl, boy transforms himself to win her over, boy decides he doesn’t need her anymore because she’s mean”
@BlameThePeacock can you name any? I've never seen such a plot.
@asklemmy
Anyone, of either gender, would react negatively to someone interacting with them with the energy and perspective you’re displaying here.
If you think that type of reaction is common, I suggest looking at the common denominator.
What the fuck does my energy level have to do with anything.
I've never had to ask a girl out in my life, I've been married to only my second relationship for more than half my life, and both ladies approached me.
If you have to ask what your energy/demeanor has to do with women being comfortable with you, you should probably be quiet on this subject.
I agree. But the thing with women... Oh, I wish you could visit the post-Soviet countries. Especially Belarus, Russia, Ukraine... You would be amazed by what's there.
Mr. Tate is that you?
Creepy
Oh and what’s there, subservient “trad wives”? Get out of your basement and stop blaming others for your problems.
Are you talking to me??? Let's start with the fact that I am a woman. And what do you mean by "traditional women"?
That poor woman.
How have women made it difficult for men?
The social expectation was that the man approaches, but now enough women have said that isn't acceptable in so many situations that it's no longer safe to do so in practically any situation.
Now men who want a relationship can essentially only find one by either being an asshole and asking when they shouldn't, or using a dating app which is a massive waste of men's time.
How is it unsafe for a man to approach a woman in a social situation?
“Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them.” —Margaret Atwood
I think the guy you’re responding to is well down the path of believing that it’s “unsafe” to be laughed at.
And you're so far down a path that you think getting laughed at is an acceptable response to someone asking you out.
Which one is more toxic?
I get the feeling old mate here does not find himself in actual social situations with women very often.
AKA, "A, B, and C aren't appropriate, so D through Z aren't safe either!"
Dude rather than accept some much-needed constraints, you're having a hissy and throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
There are people in this thread saying even doing it as a bar isn't okay anymore. Name one place where a man would be safe asking without potentially being called a creep even just for a polite inquiry. It sounds like there isn't one anymore.
Not all women would react that way, but it sounds like there are enough women who think that's an acceptable response even in a bar that it's nonlonher longer viable.
This is Ask Lemmy not Ask Incels.
That sounds like some incel shit right there. But since you said you're married I'm forced to assume that you came by your misogyny honest?
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That makes it worse.
I disagree. Although I'm taken I was at a bar hanging with friends and, when I was getting a drink alone, a gal at the bar was totally giving me the "hit on me" eyes.
10 years ago I wouldn't have seen it or acknowledged it, now that I've built more confidence with women I see it more often. That and, anecdotally, when you're in a relationship women seem to come at you more often.
men* have made this so fucking difficult
for menFTFY
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Sexist comment.
It really is. It actually makes me sad. I'm the grown daughter of a father who sounds a lot like the person you responded to. I love my dad and it's a complicated relationship as he really doesn't think he's a misogynist, he truly believes he's just "telling it like it is."
It made me furious for years and now it deeply saddens me. He will never have the chance to truly know his daughter because he is literally incapable of seeing me as an equal in terms of basic humanity. And that is sad because I'm delightful and smart and wickedly funny when I'm comfortable with someone, he doesn't get to see the authentic version of his own offspring, what a loss...
I'm sorry to hear that, that's an awful situation to be in. I'm also not close with my parents because they say heinous shit that i can't stand and support the red team and religion.
What a fucked up world we live in.
Chosen family > inherited family
Let's not attribute this to all women. This is both imposed and from the consumer culture of the patriarchal system. Less often, when it is radical feminism - here it is simply hatred of a man simply because he is a man.... I am a girl, and I often see radical feminism... Especially in the post-Soviet space... It's a wild horror... Especially those raised by mercantile princesses... If I were relaxing in a bar, I definitely wouldn't want to see a man I didn't know at that time. Why do you need parks, cafeterias, libraries and just the embankment?
You just made it worse, you're saying that there's nowhere a man can ask safely.
Like I said, it should be mandatory for women to be the one to approach at this point.
"it should be mandatory for women to "
Is a wild thing to put in absolutely any sentence.
Why?
It's mandatory for all men to register for the selective service system in the US, and women don't have to.
Sometimes things be like that.
I also disagree with conscription. But even if you think it's a good idea, you're equating a national service requirement to mandating women speak to men (presumably many of whom they have no interest in). This is just getting wilder and wilder.
Where did I say that? There are drunk people in the bar, and they don't always want to meet you. Yes, there are those who are only thirsty for acquaintances, but often they themselves will take the initiative. I suggested a list - cafes, parks, embankments, etc. It's not always pleasant to talk to people who have been drinking, especially when it's not part of the group.
If you walk up to random people in a cafe, park, or embankment (really?) and ask for their numbers, you could get a positive response, but it's equally likely that a women (or even a group) will start yelling at you for doing so.
That's what I'm saying about nowhere to ask safely. Some women will be totally fine with being approached, and others will not, but there is ZERO way to indicate to others that information.
We need to bring back the whole gay handkerchief system and adapt it to the whole population, If everyone wore an accessory or object that indicates your willingness(or not) to be approached it would make the whole situation 100% better. Like a stoplight party, but all the time and with slightly less impact on your whole wardrobe.
Ah, you’re getting to a challenge that women have faced forever: “If I reject this man, will he decide to attack or kill me?” (Sources: 1, 2, 3, 4,5, 6)
Or just in general the concept that’s been named “Schrodingers Rapist.”
It would be a whole lot safer for many people if there was an automatic way to see into someone’s soul to know what they are like and what they are capable of. Are they a rapist? Do they have the potential to be? Will they reject me violently? Will they publicly humiliate me?
None of us can know those things. The best we can do is to try to establish strong social skills and pattern recognition, and work to avoid the situations that put us in danger (whether physical, social, or emotional). It’s hard and there’s no silver bullet.
While you want to put the onus on women to minimize the risk of a man being publicly humiliated, you’re ignoring the realities that women are dealing with the exact same kind of uncertainties (except statistically speaking, with much worse outcomes). There isn’t an easy answer here and it’s not one that falls on just one gender to resolve.
So I think this is the disconnect. This isn't window shopping; you're trying to connect with another human being. You need to take the time to talk with her, see if she shows interest by engaging and encouraging the conversation, and if there's any commonality or chemistry between you.
*Then*, if you think there could be something there, offer to give your number rather than ask for hers. It will help her feel safer with you, and she can choose whether or not to accept and if she takes it, she can choose whether or not to follow up. It puts the onus on her to move things forward.
What the hell is this exaggeration? You just go and exaggerate everything!
If you need a meeting party, go ahead and organize one. But it is logical that no one will give out a phone number during social networks! It is not 90 or 00 (depending on the level of development of the country). After all, everyone has the right to refuse an acquaintance! It is not an obligation. But to answer your question, a small conversation is quite enough. And during the conversation you will understand whether there is any sense.
Gay, ok. So he's just looking for a girlfriend, not a girlfriend. (Fucking English... 1 friend, 2 relationships) Why then meet on the street? There are plenty of different fan fiction sites, plenty of groups on themes where you can find people who are quite tolerant of gays and lesbians. You apparently have no idea what it's like in other countries... Today the easiest way to meet someone is the Internet. And not the street. After all, many do not accept people who violate their personal space. I won't even mention those who already have a developed culture of "man = rapist"... It's generally difficult to understand what some individuals have brought women...
I'll just say you probably shouldn't take dating advice from people who haven't done any dating for the last 30-40 years. The world has most certainly changed.
People are allowed to speak to one another in public. Just be respectful of people’s cues, and that goes for people of all genders.
I disagree. While certainly some things differ between generations, human nature is still the same and the world in many regards isn't all that different from 40 years ago.
I don't know OP's parents so I can't speak to them specifically, but I wouldn't automatically discount someone's opinion just because they're a couple decades older.
The process of "courtship", if you want to call it that, is definitely something that has changed dramatically between generations.
Your parents never had to bother with things like a woman specifying a time to "debut", meeting with suitors under the supervision of an elder, the taboo of an unmarried couple being alone before marriage, the obligation for a woman's family to put together a dowry, etc.
I mean, women in most of the west have only had political agency for just shy of 100 years, and even less than that as "equal" members of the workforce. Social dynamics have radically changed over the past several generations, and are continuing to change even now.
There was some indeterminate point in western society when advice like "You know what would really win her over? Duel her most eligible suitor" universally stopped being good advice, and the same is happening today with many of the dating strategies our parents grew up with.
OP's parents are in their sixties; they probably were born in the mid '50s to mid '60s and started dating in the '70s/'80s. Courtship probably didn't factor in unless they're Mormons or something.
Edit: I re-read and realized OP said his parents are almost 60, meaning almost definitely started their dating lives in the '80s.
Right, I just mean the concept of "courtship" (if broken down to the basic concept of starting a long-term romantic relationship) has evolved to the point that it is dated to even refer to dating as "courtship" anymore. I would take any dating advice from someone considerably older with a hefty grain of salt. Sex is human nature, but dating is a constantly-evolving system of social norms that most people won't experience outside of their own generation.
The world has changed, but this particular piece of advice is timeless. I approach people I want to talk to in real life every day, multiple times a day. No one is ever offended by it, literally ever. The reason women get offended over men approaching is because they do this thing where they approach the woman as an object, leading with their sexual desire, as if the woman is obligated to satisfy them simply because the man feels attracted. It's a recipe for disaster.
Listen, men, there's nothing wrong with being sexually attracted to a woman. But approach her as a human being first. Be considerate of how she's feeling, pay attention to her boundaries, and be respectful. Of course, at some point, you need to express your interest, and it's better to be transparent about that rather than creepy. If you are motivated by sexual interest, her intuition will tell her that long before you think it will, so no sense in hiding it. But as a general rule, never outpace the level of reciprocation she's given you.
That means, don't walk up to a stranger who isn't making eye contact with you and tell her you want to fuck her. Don't even ask for her number. First, make eye contact. If she makes eye contact back, you can proceed to the next step. Say hi. If she says hi back, you can introduce yourself. If she reciprocates by introducing herself, you can ask a question or tell her something. After you've had a conversation, you can ask for her number, or suggest a date. But take it one step at a time. If you take two steps ahead and she hasn't reciprocated, that's when you're gonna get into trouble. If she stops reciprocating, stop escalating. If she expresses a boundary or discomfort, thank her for letting you know, and back off.
TLDR; approach! But slow the fuck down and pay attention to if she's comfortable and reciprocating. Respect her boundaries. You honestly won't go wrong with that approach.
I've approached about 800 women a year, for the past 4 years and the worst thing that's happened is that my ego got a little bit hurt a few times when they said no thank you. Zero drama, zero anger, zero cancellation. And I'm just an average looking ginger dude.
Just learn to talk to all people in social situations, and don't make it transactional.
The right people will just drop into your life naturally.
Great advice. The bit about it not being transactional is very important. Go live your life, chat with everyone to connect to other human beings.
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This is the answer. You can absolutely approach a woman if you are interested in her, just be respectful and polite about it. I'm a woman who has been both rudely approached and politely approached.
Scenario 1- bad experience: I was at a show seeing some metal bands I really liked. I was wearing a shirt with a local band that was big in the 80s 90s. The band is bit niche, not hugely known to the general public. So I'm minding my own business waiting to buy a drink, and this guy approaches me, points to my boobs and says "Do you even know who that band is?" I told him "yes, I'm a huge fan and have been listening to them for years." That should have been the end of it, but then he tells me "oh I'm only asking since my niece has been wearing my old band shirts because they look cool". Ok bud. There was no reason to tell me this. He was not approaching other men and asking them this same question. He was belittling me, in order to get me to talk to him. Which is a common tactic around men who don't respect women as people (see Dennis Reynolds from it's always sunny)
Scenario 2 - positive experience: Again, at a metal concert. I'm there with my husband and his bff. I was there to see the headliner, they were there to see the band before. My husband wasn't feeling great all day, and his friend had to work early the next day, so they left and I stayed to watch the headlining band. I noticed this group of guys, especially one, sort of looking at me every once and a while, but I ignored it and watched the band. Once the show was over, I left and was waiting at the bus stop. The same group of guys approached me, and one that was looking at me during the show says "hi, my name is __. I'm sorry to bother you, but I just wanted to introduce myself since I couldn't help looking at you during the show. I don't want to be a creep but I think you're beautiful, would you like to grab a drink with me and my friends?" So I thanked him, and said I would have to pass, but hoped they all had a fun night". The they left, I got on the bus, felt safe and not bothered. This man complimented me in a respectful way and that was the end of it.
Hope that helps!
If you dont ask, the answer is automatically "No" .
"""You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott" - ZoomBoingDing
I think there's a lot of nuance that both sides of this are missing. There's a lot of middle ground between not talking to women out in the world at all, and going up to random girls and saying "nice shoes, wanna fuck?
You absolutely can approach people, strike up a conversation, maybe even hit it off and spin it into a friendship or romantic relationship.
I'm far from the guy to tell someone how to do that and try to pick apart the it's and outs of what makes some things ok and others not, but it is something that absolutely can be done.
Gotta say, if you are a bit spicy and they are too, if your shirt matches their shoes this might result in a date.
It wouldnt be the first time.
Do you ever make small talk with men with whom “you don’t have business?”
I’m assuming yes, you probably do. Speaking with women is the same, just be sure to pick up on cues if they don’t want to speak. In fact, I’d advise you to practice by making small talk with everyone you can, with no agenda, and pay attention to their cues.
Actually, I don't. I am far more afraid of talking to men. All of the male family members I grew up around were violent. I was punched or choked as a kid if I did anything to offend them. And so, I learned to never do anything that could possibly provoke them for fear of what would happen to me. My mother also sometimes used corporal punishment on me, so I also learned to expect violence from women if they become angry.
So it seems like I have a general fear of offending people because, besides hurting others emotionally, I always expect violence to follow. The easiest way to avoid offending strangers is to never engage with them, and so that is the position I take by default. I don't want to bother anyone.
And this is why I asked this question. I am now self-aware of the fact that I have a completely distorted hyper-paranoid mental model of social dynamics where negative reactions have nuclear consequences and must be avoided at all costs. At the same time, I know that most of my parents' takes are pretty bad, but there is an occasional kernel of truth in what they say. I thought that this was likely to be one of those situations, so I wanted to see if others could help point out the nuance.
So far, I have lived my entire life under the fear of violence. It prevented countless friendships and social interactions from ever happening. I avoided everything bad at the cost of everything good, and it left me with nothing. That prevented me from learning a lot of common sense social norms, like when small talk is even appropriate. I just assume that it never is, and people would rather stare at their phones than ever talk to a stranger. I guess I'm wrong about that.
That's a lot to process and unlearn tbh. I honestly wouldn't worry about romantic or flirting interactions at this stage and maybe just practice lower stakes social interaction, yes like small talk. Like anything, conversation takes practice and you get better at it the more you do it. But the reality is, you can't go into a situation expecting perfection. You will say something awkward or embarrassing at some point because that's just human nature. We all have. Coping with that sort of thing is a necessary experience and skill. Maybe you could try going to an event geared for socializing and just challenge yourself to have two conversations, with no goal in mind. I think I would get used to casual interactions before attempting to figure out romantic ones.
I assume you recognize that isn't a tenable position long term. If you're looking to start growing from that point I have a suggestion.
This isn't quite clear and definite, but there can be a small social gift you give to people when you have a small problem that they can easily solve. It takes a fair amount of time to develop this to know the boundaries and limits, but I'll give you an easy one: Ask for the time
Just about any random stranger, when you are both at a location for a clearly legitimate reason (bus stop, grocery store, post office, etc), will give you the time when asked. This isn't something to do when at 2AM outside a bar. Needing the time is a benign problem that everyone has had at one time in their lives, and its something nearly everyone in modern society can solve. The interaction is so easy its rote. Keep your distance and catch their attention (if they aren't clearly focused on something else):
You: Excuse me, my phone died. Do you have the time?
Them: (Possibly sizing you up) Uhh, its 5:37
You: Thank you, I appreciate it.
Then you walk away. Practice that with people around until it doesn't feel uncomfortable.
Wow, I’m sorry for the abuse that’s led you to the level of fear you live in. Of course it’s going to be hard for you to start any kind of connection with someone who might have a potential romantic component if you aren’t able to connect to people who don’t have that potential.
If you’re looking for broader advice, I’d recommend getting into some social groups for hobbies or business-type things. Board gaming, hiking, maker space, Toastmasters, cons; anything that gets you out of the house and meeting people.
Once in those groups, start socializing in general. Get more comfortable meeting people and establishing friendships. Realize that not everyone you meet will respond with violence and there are better people out there.
You won’t frequently get far if you aren’t in social settings where people are trying to meet other people; 95+% of the time any interaction like that is likely to be a one-off. But if you’re confident and friendly, sometimes it’s not. It is NOT predatory to still talk to people outside of those settings, but if you only talk to people you’re physically attracted to then it’s borderline weird and could be a bit predatory.
As you build the skill of talking to anyone and everyone, you’ll also develop better communication skills and more confidence (which, btw, happens to be one of the most attractive traits). And you might just find in the process of doing so that only talking to people you find physically attractive upfront isn’t the best way to meet a potential partner.
I’m genuinely sorry your family hasn’t helped you learn these skills and has actively undermined you in a way that makes it more difficult. Whether it’s a romantic interest, friendships, or your career, working on these skills will help you become a better person.
Oh nooooo
So sorry those losers were not just losers but also abusers (no offense to good memories you have or good parts of them, if any, just covering my bases here b/c life’s complicated)
Would you like to try to build back some confidence here? Elderly folks can be so very sweet (and/or lonely). Next time you’re at a crosswalk and see someone who couldn’t even suddenly dive at you fast enough to make physical contact, you could broach a conversation.
Maybe we’d rather, but it’s kinda killing us at least in a sense
Published today: https://www.afterbabel.com/p/on-the-death-of-daydreaming
tl;dr interrupting me when I’m on my phone is probably chill (maybe I’ll thank you, or excuse myself if I’m sending a work email/thing)
“Ninja” edit: before folks come @ me for the phone interruption thing (for good reason), mainly advocating for building up those small talk skills that abusers hampered through NO fault of your own
You don't need a date. You need therapy.
It's ok to take up space. You don't have to become invisible in order to be around people. Assume others know they'll be around people in public and that they're comparing you against the assholes on the subway or the screaming, entitled weirdo who is harassing employees. Since I get the impression you don't act like that, no one is paying much mind to what you're doing.
Not to pathologize everything, but I've found a lot of help in therapy to deal with past experiences, hang ups I've had that I didn't understand, and things I didn't like that I couldn't unlearn on my own. Maybe that's something that could help you be more content in your interactions with people?
My advice on effective therapy: There are bad therapists out there. Find a therapist you click with. There's evidence that shows the relationship you have with your therapist is the highest indicator of success. So if you don't jive with them during the first contact (sometimes that's a phone call to ask questions before committing, sometimes it's the first session), find another therapist.
I'd much rather chat with a stranger than stare at my phone while waiting around in public. Connecting with strangers over some simple things can be surprisingly heart warming in an increasingly isolating world. Even just chatting about a good deal on soup or enjoying recent sunshine makes my day a little bit better. If you chose to chat with me, my day would be better.
Yeah. About that...
Ok. But not everywhere is it accepted to have "small talk"...
I guess, but based upon his parents advice it sounds like it is where OP is.
The amount of times I've been in a pleasant conversation with a dude and when it becomes apparent I'm not available, they just immediately stop talking to me. Like... what? It's abrupt, obvious, and super shitty to do to someone. And for the readers making assumptions about the scenarios--this wasn't in a bar or a social event. It's just random places in public where two people might make small talk.
I hope everyone takes your advice. Just talk to people to talk to people, without a transactional goal. Worst case scenario, you practice your conversation skills. Best case, you meet cool people and sometimes those people might want to meet up again or start texting etc. Boom a new friend that could be a relationship if you both are into it. Or you can just collect cool friends.
Disclaimer: This is for relationships and not just people to fuck. Go to places where other people are looking for that if you want to speed run fucking (bars, clubs, mixers, anime cons, etc.), which is totally fine.
This thread is not meant for autistic people.
"Yes you can talk to women in public, but also not flirt with them even though that's the obvious context of the post, but also there are some public places you can flirt with them that are somehow different from the other public places, and also it's fine in the places where it isn't."
I've come to the conclusion from this thread that the answer lies somewhere near "actually some women hate it and some women don't, and since the only way to find out which is which is by stepping on the landmine, you might as well flirt with anyone you want at wherever you see them, but do it politely and move on if she says no."
And in all honesty, yeah fuck it, I'm gonna. I don't want to make anyone uncomfortable, but being that the other option is "die alone and get eaten by my cats" I think it's just going to have to happen.
Yeah that’s about all you can do in reality.
Just remember not to be persistent if it feels off immediately, do not violate anyone’s space more than necessary (do not go for physical contact as a rule of thumb, strike up a conversation instead, if unsure of social rules) and most importantly, listen to them and try your best to take the hint if they can’t find a way to be direct and instead attempt to politely fend you off.
But there are a lot of social rules and cues everyone should be aware of, which definitely makes it hard for those unable to feel them. It doesn’t mean you can’t try your darnest though. Intent is important, so as long as you mean no harm, and do not break the obvious rules of personal space and no is no, nothing irreversible will happen.
It is and will be awkward, but it often is for us too who can sense and understand (at least most of) the “rules”. That’s just being human.
The worst is if you overthink it. Just figure if it’s appropriate and follow some sensible rules of thumb if it’s hard to sense the appropriateness, and then be the awkward clumsy you that most of everyone is in context like this.
Even if you radiate charm, are a natural with words and gestures, are in perfect harmony with the ambiguous rules of social interactions etc, you’re bound to misread people and situations sooner rather than later, and that’s just something that happens.
Being human is… very human. That is, awkward and clumsy and often disappointing. The upside is that it’s also surprising, exciting, invigorating and so full of possibilities and such joy, if you just manage to get past the also very human aversion to any potential awkwardness or disappointments.
This became a weird rant. But as someone with adhd and some weird natural drive for other humans that I haven’t been able to understand myself, I do often fail to think things through and approach people without much thinking. I have the benefit of naturally not overthinking it until after the fact. The world has never ended and I’ve lived a colorful, socially rich life, and for whatever it’s worth, I’ve not ended up being perceived as a creep or a threat or whatever, at least not widely so. So that tells me it’s pretty hard to cause any real damage to yourself or others as long as you’re respectful, aware of the dynamic and even if not fully aware of the social cues and rules, follow a set of your own rules of thumb that you find result in socially acceptable behaviour.
Don’t let the fear of unknown or being ridiculed or whatever block you from having meaningful social interactions. Even the most charismatic or naturally social and talkative of us end up in awkward situations and sometimes end up disappointed or ashamed for reading the cues wrong. Stuff happens. That’s life. For everyone.
But just try and be mindful of the place, the time, the surroundings, and do not violate anyone’s personal space more than necessary, and take no as an answer immediately if even hinted at. Might sound like even that’s a lot, but in time, with practice, as with just about everything else we do, these things will start coming naturally and built in in our everyday goings on.
Trust in yourself if you mean no harm. That’s about it. No one can fault someone with good intentions and respectful manners, if they keep their space and don’t persist when told or hinted no. You might get ashamed or even shocked for how wrong you read stuff, but again, that happens to everyone, even if rarely. We are all humans, and there’s a baseline level of awkwardness and inability to really read anyone’s mind that comes with the territory. So just try and trust yourself in that.
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i really want to be left alone in parks. i go there to chill, not to have some awkward dude sit down next to me and try to strike up a conversation with an obvious ulterior motive.
Just to point out how subjective the whole time-and-place thing is. Not saying someone with a lot of tact couldnt pull it off. But thats not the target demography of a post like this.
Getting to know someone through shared interests/common activities is definitely the safer route, not just for the guys.
I'm a guy, and if a girl sits down next to me and talks to me in a park or even in a bar, hundreds of red flags will be raised that there'd be an impromptu Soviet parade in my head.
Sure, I'd respond politely, but I'd be constantly wondering what she actually wants from me: recruit into a sus MLM thing? recruit into a sus cult? recruit into a sus MLM cult thing? And I am sure that if the genders were reversed (a guy hitting me up, a woman, all of a sudden), it'd not be a Soviet parade, but an all-out scramble for the bunkers. That's not to say all women think the same as I do, though, but just echoing the OP's sentiment, which I somehow agree on.
There are far safer avenues for talking to the person of your preferred gender (or non-gender), where flirting is tolerated more, than out in public.
Let me prephase this by saying that I have never been officially diagnosed but there's a good chance that I'm in the spectrum.
This is my philosophy on the matter: you won't find a girlfriend talking to a random person just because of their looks, so if it was a guy, would you talk to them? If the answer is no then I won't. For example, pretty girl on the bus, I wouldn't talk to a pretty guy on the bus so I don't; Pretty girl talking about something I have an interest in, or similar, I might talk to a pretty guy doing that about our common interest so I feel it's okay. That being said I'm not much for talking to random strangers in person unless we're in a social gathering, and I would feel very uncomfortable itlf a random person came to talk to me out of the blue, so even though all that I said above there's a 99% chance I won't talk to a random person anyways.
Makes me think if I'm autistic
I'm really impressed by how level headed everyone is here, to be honest.
Woman here: I'm not annoyed if a person I don't know talks to me, as long as a) they don't interrupt something I'm doing to have conversation and b) they read my body language and fuck off again the moment it's clear I'm not interested. But asking me questions when I have my headphones in to talk about inane shit while I roll my eyes? Nah.
Both of you are right and wrong, it's not so black and white.
You absolutely can make friends, chat with people at the bus stop, strike up convos at bars, the local ski resort, bike park, etc. Friendships can naturally blossom into relationships (or remain friendships, which is healthy and natural too).
You can't approach people and immediately ask them out, it feels weird and unappreciated (and that goes both ways, I've had a complete 180° role reversal and it was still weird and gross).
You're young, you have plenty of time, and honestly the weirdest thing about all this is that your parents are worried you're gay, like there's something wrong with that. There's barely any differences between genders, people overhyped the shit out of it in church, tbh.
Anyways, any% dating really doesn't work, and I feel like your parents should know that. Don't even try for dating, everyone can sense desperation. Just dgaf and focus on having fun and making friends. Love will naturally evolve out of good friendships.
Do you talk to men you don't know in public? Small talk, or jokes at a bar? In the grocery store? Why wouldn't you talk to women? I am a woman and have daughters and none of us is offended by this, nor even the hypersensitive one, not even the lesbian. It's friendly talk.
It's harassment if you don't stop when you get a rejection. It's harassment if you sidle up with some horrifying personal comment about her body, or grab her arm and make her listen. You aren't going to do any of that. Small talk is not harassment, flirting is not harassment.
You are right in one way - it was bad that guys used to be able to say anything with absolute impunity, and women couldn't stop them, I was around for the end of that. Those guys didn't treat women like people, but in a way, neither are you, right? We are just people, talk to us like people.
I don't talk to anyone in public because I have historically considered it to be a violation of their right to be left alone. I believed that people stick together in groups of their friends or family, and those groups don't want to interact with each other. Solo people are a group of one. If everyone follows those rules, there will be no unplanned or unwanted interactions with strangers. Given the current state of the world, the constant phone usage, and general social unrest, it made perfect sense to me that nobody would want to interact with anyone that they didn't already trust. Based on the responses to that post, it seems like that mental model is flawed.
But this is why I assumed that the discourse around sexual harassment extended to approaching women at all. It was because I already believed that talking to strangers in general was an act of violating their space. So, I assumed that the discourse around guys being creeps was also talking about that. After all, I'd probably get nervous if someone randomly started talking to me, so of course it would make sense for other people to feel super uncomfortable from it, especially if you don't know if the person talking to you is a predator.
This is an example of how wanting to do the right thing, combined with my limited social understanding, leads to weird and extreme takes.
This makes sense, if they modeled steamrolling people instead of gentle conversation I can understand you don't have practice or guidance on conversation, and also it's really normal to feel like you need to have alone space if your family didn't give you enough of it.
But - unplanned and unwanted are two different things. Without that element of luck, randomness, our lives would be so dull. It's nice when spontaneous conversation happens. It doesn't have to go anywhere, doesn't have to mean anything. I would say if you want to practice the non-confrontational small talk literally just look up from your phone when you are out and about and say hi to people, let them greet you too, see if you feel more comfortable over time.
I will note this is a sort of regional thing - Florida is sort of like 'The South' and kind of not, but in terms of people just striking up random conversations, we are like the South. It's very much normal here. NYC is different people are in a hurry and brusque.
I mean I generally don’t talk to strangers in public unless I have a specific reason to. Why would I talk to someone I don’t know in a supermarket? They’re just other people doing the same thing I am
"Woah, those apples look so good! Which ones are they? "
"I can never tell if a watermelon is ripe, can you?"
When I am buying something, often someone will say "have you tried that before? What is it like?"
Stuff like that. Small talk. We aren't machines, we are social animals who interact with each other. I do think people are quick to discount the value of weak social interaction, shallow relationships, and focus on deep friendships and romantic ones, but those weak connections are so valuable too. They are like a glue for a community, connections that don't demand much from you.
I'm far from extroverted and moderately socially awkward, but still my life is so much better when I look up and say hi to people.
Yeah have never had anyone say anything like that to me at the grocery store unless I’m shopping with them. If they did I’d probably just be vaguely annoyed. Maybe it’s s culture thing I don’t know
This ^ I was at the hospital today getting some lab work done. Another guy was sitting across from me, head down, in his hands, breathing heavily.
"Hey man, you OK? You don't look so hot, can I get you some water or something?"
He was OK, 81 years old, he was just upset from being jacked around by the hospital administration. We had a good conversation. I think he was fine when I left.
This is probably the best advice you could give tbh. All the relationship stuff can't be forced anyway but you can at least practice not freaking out and fumbling the bag around women. Not everything has layers of double meaning, romantic tension and secret motives. Sometimes you just wanna approach someone and tell them something because it's fun to talk to strangers.
It's pretty clear what the consensus is here. Yes, talk with women. You can even (politely) hit on women you fancy. Based on your statement about yourself it's unlikely you would be pushy and threatening if she said no, but still, just understand when to stop.
Next question is how to get there from where you are. You're scared you would be seen as a threat, harassing women just by talking to them out of the blue. So you doubtless have little experience talking with women. That's where you are.
I see two possible paths to take. Which one is right depends on why you feel that way. If it's an emotional issue, like if you (for instance) start shaking and sweating at the thought of walking up to a woman and introducing yourself, then maybe start by talking with a therapist. They can be really helpful. On the other hand if you are just nervous because you don't know how to talk with a woman then look into learning how to make small talk. It's actually a skill. It's something you can learn. And once you have learned it and practiced it enough that you are comfortable with it, then approaching and talking with a woman is just about starting and having a conversation. You can even practice with guys if it makes you more comfortable. A quick google search produces a bunch of good ideas on how to start.
Now you have homework. Learn how to carry a conversation. Learn to make people feel comfortable around you. Learn to actually be interested in other people. It shows and it makes a difference.
EDIT: In a reply to another comment you mentioned severe violence in your childhood and the resultant fear as a major deterrent in approaching people. That's definitely something to see a therapist about. You can work through stuff like that in time. And you'll be amazed how much more free you feel once you have.
I'm forty, so a different generation than your parents, but I still grew up and had my first dating experiences before the internet. Online dating wasn't really a thing here until I was in my early twenties.
At least where I grew up the guys who randomly approached girls to ask them out were seen as creepy even back in the 90s. I and everyone I knew met partners through activities like sports clubs, parties, bars etc. (I'm not from the US, so people from my school started going to bars pretty early). While there wasn't a big discourse around men approaching women in public (or none that reached my little town), we did have some guys in town who'd just walk up to girls on the street and ask them out and the consensus was that they were weird and should be avoided.
I met all my partners so far through activities. My first boyfriend was a regular at the same student café and we ended up sitting next to each other during quiz night. I met guys I had dates with in uni - sitting next to each other during lectures and talking about the Prof, going to the same presentation or cooking night etc. None of them "approached me" in the sense of coming up to me and asking "can I have your number" with zero context. We chatted, had an interesting conversation. At the end we exchanged contact information to meet for a coffee, usually without any expectation of it being a date. When coffee went well, someone would ask the other out on a proper date. No approaching, no deciding within a few seconds wether you want to date someone. Just casually getting to know each other before asking for more.
I also met my husband that way. We went to the same event, talked, had a lot in common. We met the next day to continue a discussion about a certain topic we were both interested in. That's when things started getting flirty and by the end we made plans to meet for a real date. I don't even remember who asked whom, we were both heavily flirting with each by the time we talked about seeing each other again so it was very obvious the next meeting would be a date. He didn't ask me out out of nowhere or hit on me, we were just getting to know new people and eventually we started flirted somewhere along the line.
This is probably the most reasonable response so far. You don't just approach someone for no reason, there needs to be something to start a conversation about.
There's a difference between "approaching women" and "APPROACHING WOMEN."
You should be comfortable interacting with women in any environment simply because a) they are human beings and b) they're over 50% of the population.
You can't go outside and just never talk to women, that's actually creepier.
You don't have to be trying to pick someone up to, you know, treat them like a human being and talk to them.
I can chat up an old grandma but an attractive person will make me shit my pants
That's something you need to get over and you do that by practice. Forget the "attractive" part, focus on the "person" part.
A classic book to read:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Win_Friends_and_Influence_People
Easier said than done
Learning how to engage and socialize with people of both sexes is a necessary skill. As long as your not being a toxic mess in front of them, you're fine.
Yeah it's super weird when people pick a very specific thing.
Like, imagine if someone wrote "I avoid approaching Brazilian Men With Beards in public because I believe it's inappropriate. My parents say that it's a necessary skill. Who is right?"
Speak to people like people. Stop thinking about what's in their pants.
Got a bit tangled there bud and you're horseshoeing
If you never approach women unless you have business with them then you're treating them as things to have business with or romantic entanglements.
Try just treating us as people. You can have friends, you know.
As a guy, I can firmly say that I've never made a friend at the bank, grocery store, or coffee shop. If anyone started talking to me at one of these places, I would be very confused, and wonder why they are talking to me and what they are trying to get from me. And similarly, I have never struck up a conversation with anyone in these places - that would be super weird.
Of course, I see hot women in these places frequently, and I'd like to talk to them. Well, not really talk to them so much as fuck them. I'd like to say "hey, you have a really nice ass. Wanna bang one out in the bathroom right now?" Which is not unusual - this is just standard male sexuality. Hence why if you look on Grindr, a guy's profile will be a picture of his asshole, and a common opener is "Hey, you in the McDonalds too? Wanna fuck in the bathroom right now?"
Unfortunately as a guy talking to a nice lady in the grocery store, that would be sexual harassment, and then I would be banned from that Safeway or whatever. So if I want to approach the girl with a nice ass, I need to have some kind of excuse - like, I dunno, what apples she's looking at or whatever. But now it feels like I'm lying, because I don't give a shit about apples - I just care about her nice ass.
You really, really, really need to see women as people-who-might-be-friends, and not exclusively as fuck objects.
I certainly do. I have a lot of female friends. They like me a lot. And I have several ongoing female fwbs. They also like me a lot. And I like and care about my female friends and partners a lot.
None of this changes the fact that literally the only thing I know and like about random grocery store girl is her nice ass, and this is the one and only real reason I would want to approach her. I've tried your suggestion before, and I have to say, it's pretty fucked up. Because what you're actually saying is "Your sexuality is wrong and bad, and you should be ashamed of it. You are a bad person for wanting to have sex." So much for sex positivity and not kink shaming, lol. Turns out the most common kink of all - wanting to have sex with hot women - is shameful. Weird how that works.
The desire isn't shameful dude. The fact you need to make it her problem is.
Where did I say I'm making it her problem?
Your entire commentary.
You see a woman you find sexually desirable about in public, doing normal, human things.
You approach her solely because you want to fuck her. You literally say this. You're literally only interacting with her because you want to get your dick wet. Newsflash: People don't want to fuck randos who come up to them at the grocery store. But because you wanted to throw in she now has to get out of the interaction - which I'm guessing is gonna be more than a bit fuckin' fraught because you don't seem to be grasping the fact that "I want to fuck it" is not a viable reason for annoying people in grocery stores - and manage your resultant rejection meltdown when all she wanted was some god damn potatoes.
You've made your desire her problem.
No, no.. It feels like lying because you are lying. Don't do that. They are people and have friends and fuck and stuff like you. But at no point do they think you are a fuck dick and approach you to say that, because that is a än idiotic thing to do. Because you are a human in turn. Try to reflect on that. That both of you are human and want to fuck and at no point in that logic do any single one of you reduce the other person to a fuck object. Just learn that quick fix then you can approach them on equal terms again and actually get tail instead of whatever you are doing
Yeah, that's what I said.
Right, that's the problem. I wish they would. Again: see Grindr. But unfortunately, I'm not gay. Very annoying.
Except that I never reduce anyone to being a fuck object. They appear in my awareness as a fuck object, with the potential for me to gain awareness of their deeper humanity later. Similarly, I do not fully appreciate the deep layers of the human experience within my cashier at McDonalds. From my point of view, they are a hamburger dispensing machine, up until the point where we form an emotional connection. And I can safely assume they are happy I see them this way, because they don't want to see the deep layers of my humanity either - they want to see me as "faceless customer 447", who they hand a bag to and then ignore as quickly as possible. If I went around fully appreciating the depth of the human soul in every person I looked at, I'd probably go crazy, and certainly would never get anything done.
Given that appreciating the true depth of the human soul is both time consuming and energy intensive, we must ask why we do it for any particular person. It must be because, for some particular person at some particular time, we have reason to put this time and energy in. And for random girl in the grocery store, the reason is: because she has a nice ass and I wanna fuck her. So we really just have the problem one step removed. I could be all "hey, those are some delicious looking apples." And she'd be like "I hope so, but why the fuck are you talking to me? We're in the grocery store, that's weird." And I'd say, "Because I've fully conceptualized the depth of your human experience and am fascinated by the minutiae of the way you're picking your apples as just one more example of the beautiful fractal complexity of the nature of reality." And she'd say "Okay, that's even weirder. Are you high on mushrooms? Why are you talking to me instead of staring at the ants in the grass outside?" And of course, my honest answer must be "because you've got a nice ass and I wanna fuck you."
I mean, "whatever I'm doing" is exactly what OP suggested in his OP. Meeting women at socially appropriate times and places (social gatherings, bars, concerts, events, etc); through my social networks and hobbies; and via online dating apps. In all of these cases, I either have an actual reason to talk to a stranger other than the fact that I want to fuck them, or else I can openly flirt with such a stranger under the assumption that this is expected and socially acceptable since the whole point of the venue is to find sexual/romantic partners. And I do this quite well. I just don't hit on women in the grocery store.
I haven't seen horseshoe used as a verb in... ever, but that still made sense.
I'm confused, what is horseshoe in this context?
primer just in case
but in this context: OP is working so hard to not treat their interactions with women as transactions that they only approach them when they have business with them...thus turning all interactions into transactions.
TIL, thanks!
It's okay to approach and have normal conversations with women that you don't have business or school commonalities with. Even if you think you may have interest to eventually escalate it into dating. Just be genuine and don't try to be someone you're not. But once you make that attempt to date, if they say no, accept that no and don't try again unless it's blatantly obvious they've changed their mind.
I thought people said college was the right time to date and have relationships?
I mean as long as its student-student and not professor-student, its fine, right? Or did people teach me wrong?
Yes, I completely meant any dynamic where no one is an authority figure over the other. Student to student, student to campus coffee shop barista, student to visiting alumnus.
Being a person is always great advice.
In this situation. Great person respect their boundaries and wish to be single.
Her then telling me about CNC and free use love is giving me mixed signals lmfao
there's real trauma, but can feel the connection. Eventually.
I'm not sure what CNC means, but free use love usually means they don't want the attachment of a single relationship. If you're fine with sharing, and some people are open to that, communication and knowing boundaries of everyone involved is extremely important to maintain the trust. If you're not fine with sharing, then it's probably a bad idea to pursue that one.
Consensual non consensual. Free use in that she like doms
Said she wants to be single. Has no romantic partners after trauma relations.
Whatever it ends up being I'm down 🤷
CNC is consensual non-consent, and "free use" is about your partner being able to have sex with you no matter what you're doing
You might be out of touch, but it depends on what you mean about approaching people. For example, it's perfectly reasonable to talk to anyone at all for a wide variety of reasons, including things related to your hobbies or your jobs or simply because you're waiting for the bus. Conversation is generally a safe thing to do with other human beings. If you are specifically avoiding conversations with people because they are women, then I think you should rethink your position.
Maybe your parents are asking you to start flirting with people, which is totally different from simply talking to them. If that's the topic, then it makes sense to be somewhat more careful about the time and place.
If you wouldn't strike up a conversation with a guy, don't strike up a conversation with a woman. Be comfortable with conversations with strangers of whatever gender with no ulterior motive, and you'll meet more people.
If you meet more people, your likelihood of finding dates will increase as a side effect.
If you are only approaching women, particularly women you find attractive, in places that are not generally for that purpose (bars, parties, swingers clubs), then you're being a creep.
But regardless, it's better to have interests, pursue those interests, and meet people with similar interests. Because when you have interests, you might become interesting, and someone might become interested.
I agree with everything else but the starting bit about only starting conversations when you'd also do it with a guy: if you're not into guys... like on a dating site you'd not equally talk to the men, why at a sports club if you're wanting a relationship with a woman? If you think someone's fun and attractive in a way you'd simply not have with a bloke, hecking yes talk to them where appropriate and be friends (if they also want to be) and see if they really match and are also into you etc.
I think they meant "if you're only approaching people you want to fuck, you're not going to find success"
I don't agree with this. You can approach women in public and talk to us without it being harassment. If you approach someone and they tell you to leave them alone and you don't or they're obviously uncomfortable and you persist then it's harassment.
For some context: I'm not as old as your parents but I'm older than you (I'm late 30s).
Oh, I see a peer. He'll be 30 in a few days. Yes, you are right. If they ask you not to interfere, then you shouldn't continue. There is still something that repels certain people. I definitely won't talk to people who are drunk. And lately I've noticed that I don't want to talk (no matter the gender) to people who smoke - no matter what, an IQOS, a cigarette or an electronic cigarette... I hate smokers terribly.. Well, I answer calmly, I can continue, but it doesn’t always mean anything. Just talking.Although this has become very rare, and mostly I have headphones on and don’t want to communicate much... There are reasons for this.
But in another country, when moving, I would be happy to talk, even through a translator. As I do with some other people and on different topics on another platform.
If they make eye contact and smile you can chat them up. That's the secret. They won't smile or look at you if they don't want you to talk to them.
Also, don't confuse friendliness with anything else. 😅
I don’t mind if a man initiates a conversation with me. I don’t mind if anyone initiates a conversation with me. I only mind when I use words like, “no, thank you”, and they persist. Listen to the word NO.
I don't get it. Do they do that? I haven't seen this outside drunkards
First, they need to find better things to worry about. pressing this is exactly how you end up with regrettable relationships. Second, ignore the gender. Treat women like people. If a situation comes up, like someone makes a scene at the front of a line you are both in, strike up a conversation about that. See where it goes. Lasting things occur organically. That being said, "she's hot and I want to be inside her" is not a good enough reason to strike up a conversation with someone. Appreciate the sight but don't try to capitalize on it.
Not putting some special stigma on it makes it less uncomfortable for both of you, and perhaps somewhat ironically, a little more likely that you do eventually get to be inside of her.
I think the bigger issue here is that you are obviously uncomfortable with the idea of approaching people in public and your parents are treating this as irrelevant and something you are supposed to just force yourself to do it anyway despite feeling like the situation is wrong and threatening. You shouldn't need to justify not wanting to do that by appealing to some kind of cultural authority about what is acceptable to society.
Personally even as a man it normally freaks me out when strangers approach me in public. It just feels like a very unusual, unexpected and potentially unsafe kind of circumstance, almost never something positive, there's no way I would trust such a person, so I'm not going to do that to others because it's like I would be inflicting that on both of us simultaneously, and that would of course come through in any interaction I attempted. How could I expect them to be receptive to that when I would never be myself? People may argue, that's the wrong way to feel and so it doesn't matter, replace that attitude with a better one, as if they themselves could easily substitute a totally different way of being for how they are.
If you need an invitation in order to feel safe in a social situation, I would say it is ok to demand that people respect that and not mock you for it.
Unfortunately, this is normal behavior for them. They exhibit virtually no empathy and constantly talk trash about what expectations I don't meet. They would rather laugh at me and insult me for having issues than actually help me. I'm on my own. They will spew the most vile filth imaginable, and when I insult them back, they suddenly get all pearl-clutchy and tell me that the Bible says I have to respect them no matter how awful they treat me. I tell them "Respect is a two-way street. You don't have to be nice to people who make your life hell" and they go "B-but the BIBLE!!" They are cry-bullies. And their parenting was so psychotic that it radicalized me into becoming progressive. My brother, devout follower of their teachings, grew up to become a literal cat killer. And they treat him as a perfect child and ask why I can't be like him. Yeah, uh, no thanks.
As a defense mechanism, I eventually learned to be contrarian. Whatever my parents said, I would take away the opposite lesson. Where they were rude, I was kind. Where they were discriminatory, I was inclusive. Where they promoted certain kinds of people as superior, I believed that no kind was inherently better than any other. Instead of ignoring suffering, I believed in helping those in need. The person I am resulted from my survival of this environment, not an embrace of it.
But this contrarianism prevents me from taking away nuanced lessons, and that means I need to intentionally seek that nuance. By asking about this issue, I hope to gain an understanding of some of that nuance, at least enough to help me continue to grow instead of falling into defeatism.
If you're not dependent on your parents, think about cutting them out of your life or at least strongly reducing contact. Trust me, mich less stress this way, choose people who are good to you to keep around.
Your parents are right. It is absolutely a skill that you should learn. The 'times have changed' crowd just haven't stepped up to the new level of difficulty.
It is not wrong to strike up a conversation with a stranger so long as the setting is appropriate and you pick up on the clues they give on whether the interaction is welcome or not. That is the skill you're learning.
Whether it is technically 'necessary' is debatable, but it is antisocial to flat out avoid doing so by definition.
I think you're both a little right. Yeah, they grew up in a world where it was generally more socially acceptable to approach strange women on the street than it is today. But that doesn't mean that you're never allowed to do it, either.
I think it'd be good to takeaway a bit of both arguments. Yes, you shouldn't harass women on the street, but also it's totally fine to talk to women as long as you're respectful and take the hint if they're not interested.
I think the key difference is approaching them to try and "pick them up" versus approaching for a conversation. The former can be creepy and inappropriate while the latter is less so (depending on your demeanor and the situation).
It is an important skill and confidence booster to approach people in general in public. If you are uncomfortable with women, then start with men.
If that is still uncomfortable, then that means you are uncomfortable to talking with strangers in general. Unfortunately, experience is the only way to combat this. Start small with chit chat in lines, compliment people on their shoes, etc.
Instructions unclear, now paying for a gay wedding.
Instead of making a move or straight up asking the out on a date. Just strike up a convo. You can really tell when someone doesn't want to push a conversation. Maybe they find you attractive and keep the conversation going?
If you want to cold approach, go to the club.
Yeah I find that if the other person gives some dry responses in your conversation and you're still trying to throw tinder making the conversation going, then they're probably not interested.
Some people enjoy casual chat with random people, and some people find it annoying. There's no right or wrong answer. It's definitely not the only way to meet romantic partners, though, especially these days.
Yes and no. Now I'm not an expert womanizer by any means, but you kinda just gotta treat attractive women like regular people.
You can't just walk up to somebody and go "ooga booga, wanna go out?" It's gotta be a little casual. So you're kind of right. But to go as far as to say you can't strike up conversation with somebody will be insane.
Now am I going to strike up a conversation with an attractive woman? Nah I'm go pussyshit to do anything, I'll partake in my recreational activities and hope for the best, at least I'll die doing what I like.
You're not wrong, but you've got a bit of an extreme take on it. I think you and your parents may have different thoughts on what it means to "approach" a woman though. I'm going to use "flirt" to refer to talking to a woman with intent of seeing if they would make a good partner for you and just "talk" to indicate just being friendly with someone.
No, it's fine to talk to strangers of any gender in public. Approaching them and flirting with them is not. As long as you can roughly understand when you're making someone uncomfortable and stop it, you're not going to come off as a creep/predator. Stuck in a lineup in a store? Chat with someone beside you, maybe commiserate about how long the line is. If you want to flirt with them, then yes the situations you mentioned are definitely the places to do that.
(sort of an aside: whether "meeting friends of friends" is an appropriate situation to flirt with someone you just met is still situation dependent)
Approaching women in random public spaces with the intent of finding a partner is also a pretty bad idea. While it could work, it's definitely creep/predator behaviour so I avoid it. It's very likely to make them uncomfortable, since they're just trying to do their thing not get hit on. This can easily be harassment, though I'm on the fence on whether it's always harassment.
Personally I like to flip the genders on situations like this and ask if I'd want to be the other person in this situation. It's worth keeping in mind that woman have way more statistical reasons to be weary/wary of any interaction with men, though. Regardless, e.g. if some woman was beside me in line and started chatting with me, I'd be fine with it. If some woman came up to me and complimented my shirt, I'd be fine with it. If some woman came up to me, complimented my shirt, and then asked for my number I'd be weirded out (I don't know you, lady). If some woman came up to me and asked me to take out my earbuds to commiserate about how long the line is, I'd be annoyed that I'm missing my music.
When your parents say, "did you talk to any of them," they mean did you strike up a conversation with a woman with no presumption of potential romantic outcome.
When you say it, it seems like you're assuming there's a potential for a romantic outcome in every conversation between heterosexual men and women.
Your goal should be to strike up a conversation with a woman about random topics of interest, including very shallow ones, with no expectation that you're evaluating her as a potential mate, and she's not evaluating you.
Yes, we're all subject to intrusive thoughts so from time to time, you'll fail at this goal and start thinking about a romantic path. That's fine. Just acknowledge it to yourself and endeavor to do better.
It will probably take time and practice. Give yourself grace to try and fail and learn. You'll know you're succeeding when you realize you had a conversation with a woman without her gender being a consequential thought in your mind.
You are misusing "intrusive thoughts" much the same way people who like a clean house misuse "OCD". Intrusive thoughts are not something you'd be ok doing were it not for social pressures. Intrusive thoughts are things you don't want to think about, but pop into your head anyway, like steering your car into oncoming traffic, or punching your grandma.
I'm not sure I follow.
I'm starting from the assumption that OP genuinely wants to talk to women without being creepy (for lack of a better term), presuming that comes from his intrinsic association between "talking to a woman" and "attempting to establish a romantic relationship with that woman."
That's a thought that's undesirable and presumably persistent. Sort of the definition of "intrusive."
I'm aware that the pop psych understanding of the phrase is specifically about violent or violence associated thoughts but those are the ones more people have and that probably are more disturbing than annoying.
No it is also other thoughts you don't want. Good luck with this hill though
Personally I think everyone is wrong here, but none of it in a mean or jerky way, just in perspective .
For your parents, it's definitely a different vibe now, we need to be more socially conscious about walking up to a woman, we should understand that that is inherently a dangerous place for a woman and she is likely on her guard.
That being said, you shouldn't be afraid to speak to women either, that is likely just as bad. Women are just people, they have like and dislikes, and you should talk to them the same way you would anyone.
So, I guess what I'm saying is that the days of pickup lines and sauntering over are gone. But there's absolutely nothing wrong striking up a conversation either, and in fact I encourage it. Notice things, maybe they're wearing a band T-shirt of a band you like, maybe they have a cool sticker on their phone or laptop, show interest. Don't be afraid of them.
Your instincts are probably well placed. Obviously different people will have different preferences and reactions in this regard, but you're better off getting to know people in a friendly manner than just for the sake of finding a partner. Learning how to strike up conversations with strangers and leave them wanting for more is useful, but that's about all I'd say your parents are right about.
So, this is one of the unfortunate traps of our time, especially if you live in a place with car dependent sprawl. Women don't want to be solicited while at work or on personal business (groceries, gym, etc), and, really, nobody does. You want to work at work, and you want to do your business and go home otherwise. This goes doubly or triply so for complete strangers. There's really no third places (as they're called) left, where people go for the express purpose of being social and together. That's what's missing here. As someone else said, you are, unfortunately, both a little right.
It's particularly bad in places like the US that have car dependent sprawl because
cities often have had their zoning ordinances weaponized by NIMBYs, and it's probably outright illegal to have a small cafe or shop in your neighborhood, or they're required to have some outrageous parking minimum or something like that.
driving sucks more than you may be aware of while you're doing it. If you have to get into your car to go to the grocery, you don't want to make five stops at smaller grocers throughout the week; you'd rather just make one big stop at the big box mart and just go tf home. If you want to stop at a cafe, well, just swing through the starbucks drive through so you don't have to be bothered with getting out.
Well, chances are that most of your interactions at chain businesses and stores are anonymous, so you're not meeting other people in your community there, you're not creating any bonds or relationships there, you're doing your business and getting out, which, frankly, is what they want. You're especially not making any friends in the drive thru line. For nearly seventy years now, we've built our cities to be homes to cars, not people, and it's bearing fruit in the form of the loneliness epidemic.
My advice to you would be to go out of your way to find situations where people are getting together for the purpose of being social or having fun. Look for classes put on by your local city parks, go check your local library's bulletin board for events, check social media communities for your nearby city or town for groups that meet regularly. If you're religious, seek out some religious institutions that you find palatable.
But they're fine being solicited while
Maybe I'm too autistic to understand, but unless those groups are specifically meant for finding a date, it seems to be functionally the same as "personal business." They're not interested in being solicited, they just want to have class at class, or book club at book club, or talk about town planning (or whatever these enigmatic town meetings contain) at the meetings. What makes them so different? Even if they're there to talk (like a book club,) they're there to talk about books not dating me.
The main difference is that they're there specifically for the social experience. These folks are not going there to date you, no, but they are going there to socialize, so the barriers to socializing with strangers are greatly lowered. Maybe don't just go there with dating front and center in your mind; instead focus on just meeting and getting to know people.
I suppose, could be.
Though tbf, I don't go anywhere "with dating front and center in my mind," I go places for reasons, and sometimes while at these places I see someone I think is cute and also looks maybe cool, and then dating pops into my mind, like, "oh shit they're cute, and they look like they might be cool, I wonder if they'd be into me and if it could work out." Dating is put into my mind by nature of seeing someone I may be interested in dating.
Is that not normal?
That sounds pretty normal to me. Though, in total fairness, I'm ADHD myself, so I feel a lot of what you've been saying here. Especially being hyper aware of the social meta. I've also learned a lot of advanced masking over the years. Yeah, definitely, if you're at a social event and someone catches your interest, just start with going and meeting them. Introduce yourself, and a small heartfelt compliment doesn't hurt, "hey, that was a good question, I wish I'd thought of that", for example. Also, asking low-risk questions about other people is a good way to endear them to you, "is this your first time going to this class/club? Oh? What got you interested in it?" Etc. These are all pretty good ways to start getting a conversation going so you can get a feel for that person. If it turns out you like that person, you can always offer to trade contact info so you can keep talking, or ask if you could meet somewhere (specific like "the library" or "that coffee shop") public at a specific time to chat; people tend to be more receptive if you have something specific you want to chat about, even if it's "getting to know you". It's also usually better to put that off until after a second encounter in public, I think. Last, If they ask if it's a date, be up front, only say "no" or "it doesn't have to be" if you really mean it. Ofc, YMMV. Best of luck!
very well said. just moved away from Dallas for this very reason. it's strange to be living right on top of so many people and yet paradoxically feel so isolated from all of them. cars are a scourge on human health in nearly every way imaginable
I met almost all of my previous girlfriends (including my now wife) either at parties my friends threw, or hobbies I was interested in. I never once went to a club to pick people up or try to meet people intentionally in public. That's always seemed too creepy for me.
Women are just people.
If you learn to talk to men you don't know, you'll learn to talk to women you don't know. It's not inappropriate unless you're trying to get something out of the situation. So don't. Just make some new friends. Of both sexes.
As for when/where, find some hobbies. Go do the hobbies. You'll meet people at the hobbies. Some of those people will be ladies.
It's a skill you have to learn.
My husband asked very politely for my number when I was a cashier. He said "Excuse me miss, may I have your number, id love to take you out sometime to get to know you."
There's no way this happened after the year 2000.
It was 2011. Im a 36 year old millenial.
I stand by my comment, time traveler.
I'm with your parents on this one. It's not hard to talk to someone without harassing them. Obviously you have to be mindful of the context of the situation.
You're at a party and attempt to strike up a friendly conversation with someone? Totally fine
You see an attractive stranger walking on the street and you stop them to ask them out? Not ok
Obviously there are loads of gray areas in between, but you can't just start with the premise that talking to a woman is harassment.
I love that this is exactly what he said, but you say that you are with his parents on this.
Ah I shouldn't have skimmed this while on a work call. I saw:
and thought that OP was saying they were uncomfortable talking to women period.
Look at it this way, it's the same as approaching someone in public to make a friend. Obviously, that's not inappropriate. It's only inappropriate if you're treating it differently (which you shouldn't be).
How many friends have you made cold approaching people on the street or in shops like that?
Do people often react by treating you with intense suspicion? Ngl, overly chatty/friendly strangers freak me the fuck out.
I think you should just make a habit of talking to people around you. You're kind of putting human interaction on a pedestal and that's just going to make you overthink things.
First of all, you need to understand it's not some pre-planned thing. You should be making a point to go out to do things you like doing - not going out with the explicit agenda of just talking to people. That's why I think the term "cold approach" is loaded, and full of shit--It inaccurately makes it sound like something negative and unnatural--In actuality you've done it many times before without thinking about it.
Seems you've gone deep into this analysis, of which none of it is actually relevant though, because you're not talking about the root cause of your feelings. Which is that you have social anxiety.
Is this something people actually do? I've only made friends through shared activities, mostly class, and by meeting friends of friends.
I dread encounters with folk like you when I leave the house.
I get that some humans are naturally more socially inclined, so you require constant affirmations and acknowledgment from everyone around you or you stop feeling good about yourselves and whatever, but this kind of self centred attention seeking that has you going out in public and deciding everyone should want to talk to you if you just go up to them and start talking- is incredibly fucking selfish.
Why do you think you're so special and important that you get to interrupt people going about their lives and make them listen to you talk? Nobody owes you this. If you want to talk at people start a fucking podcast and let me buy my apples in peace.
That's a lot of assumptions about how other people are thinking mate.
Woman here who gets approached from time to time… casual chats are fine and low-key expressing interest is ok. The least stressful approaches I’ve had are when a guy sends his buddy over to expression interest. So you can appease your parents by asking a friend to make the approach on your behalf, maybe.
It’s ok to talk to a woman. But judging by your wall of text… maybe it’s not ok for you specifically to talk to a woman.
I think you have a point, but also you've cranked that point to 11. Possibly 12.
Like yes, women can be really infuriated by how often they get hit on. I know the main reason my wife wanted a stereotypical wedding ring with a single diamond was that "it'll keep the flies away"
But also... people interact with you in public. It's like... a property of public spaces. Indeed talking to my wife in a public space is how we met.
The way you make it sound from your description would be that asking some woman directions would be a social fopah. Hell, where does just "having a conversation" land for you then? If you leave without asking for a number, is it different?
There's a difference between idle chit chat and approaching like Johnny Bravo.
Faux pas, hehe never seen it as fopah
?huh? there's no x in foh pa. "fox paws" pls be serious sir
Im sorry, im just a goose.
I gave up because I was typing on my phone.
You are right, women are not into bots.
I think if you talking to another person in a public place is automatically seen as a predator we failed as humans. Might as well be robots...it's absolutely a good thing to talk to people
You're supposed to wear a shirt that says 'want to touch my pension?'
Have times changed? Yes. Do you need to approach women? Yes. Don't hide behind a screen. Get out there and talk with women.
Talking with people is not disrespectful. God, what a sad society is that?
There's a saying that goes something like, "Enlarge your territory, linger in public, walk through open doors." That's a good start. Get out of the house and linger in public places. Strike up conversations and be a social animal. Talk with everyone: men, women, young, old - get that practice in. If you talk with everyone, then you're not putting as much pressure on yourself. Don't get attached to an outcome, but challenge yourself to talk to people.
I think you're making excuses. I strike conversations with strangers all the time, including women. I go dancing for swing, salsa, bachata. You wanna see something that challenges your beliefs on interactions between men and women? Go watch Bachata.
But anyway. Social skills are a skill and they need to be worked. Put yourself out there and get rejected. (You'll learn it's not so bad).
If you don't try you won't get, I'm pretty direct but I have friends who are way way worse than I am.
I generally don't try unless I get at least a smile and/or eye contact held in my direction but I do think most women like to know if they looking attractive even if they aren't interested.
Anyone who takes offense over expressing an interest would have been horrible to date anyway in my opinion.
Context matters a lot, which means you need to put yourself out there in the right context to meet someone. Examples: trivia night at the local bar, or a book club, or a local live music show. Most women aren't gonna be interested if you approach them while they're just living their lives grocery shopping or at the gym* or something - that's not a social context. (*Unless you're regulars at the gym and run into each other and chitchat all the time, but I'm assuming you're not in that kind of situation.)
Once you're in the right context, and you see a woman you're interested in, start by very casually talking to her, and keep an eye out for signs of interest (e.g., turning in their seat toward you which indicates they're giving the conversation real attention, or moving the conversation forward by making jokes or asking follow-up questions) or disinterest (e.g., one word answers with no follow-up engagement, turning their body away from you, mentioning a boyfriend). If you see signs of disinterest, just stop and let her be. But if you see signs of interest, continue the conversation. Don't be too needy, don't come on too strong, let the conversation breathe. And for godsake don't buy her drinks, it's cheesy and puts too much pressure on a new situation. Especially don't buy her a drink without even asking her first, it's pushy and I can't speak for all women, but I fucking hate that. Ask her about herself, for example her interests. Try to get a gauge on whether you're attracted to her on more than a physical level. If you have nothing in common, or you think she's boring or annoying, there's no sense in moving forward. But if there seems to be commonality and interest, keep the conversation going! If one of you is leaving, tell her you're glad you ran into her that night and ask if you can give her your number (or email address or social media, whatever young people do, I'm middle-aged so I don't know). But the important thing is that you're offering her something rather than asking her for something. This means she can say no, or if she says yes, she still has the choice on whether or not to follow up with you. It puts the control in her hands which can make her feel more safe.
Good luck, I hear it's rough out there for folks your age.
If I am not in a place hoping to strike up convo I would not like anyone coming up to me trying to do so. If I'm shopping or eating or getting my car some tires... the last thing I want is some stranger coming anywhere near me.
Were I at a bar or some social event then yes that'd be fine.
dont talk to anyone. eyes glued to the floor. no smiling. in fact, never leave your house ever again.
I have lots of advice but I haven't so much as held someone's hand since 2005. So about twenty years now.
The only advice I have is find women your age and ask your questions to them. See what they say. Then go from there.
That's real solid advice. You've summed up all these walls of texts nicely
I approached someone before the pan and asked for her number. She provided it and while it didn’t go anywhere, she complimented me for doing a real-life approach. But I’m twice your age, so I’d go with what peers your age tell you. The rules could be completely different.
Please approach women in public. It's okay.
You are wrong. Yeah times have changed, but not so much that you can't just fucking talk to someone. Say hi, strike up a conversation, whatever, and trust that anyone who doesn't want to talk will say so. The important thing when that happens is to listen to them and leave them alone.
Basically, you're right and thank you for acting that way. Your parents are wrong.
This could depend where you are from. I'm from France and a bit of chit-chat with a stranger is not a bad thing to me. But if a male stranger try a bit too hard to stir up a conversation, I would feel ackward, mostly because I'll "fear" they are trying to hit on me, which is not okay for a stranger to do out of nowhere.
But at the same time if you try to make friend with more women, maybe one day, you'll find a partner in one of them. If you genuinly try to make connection with a woman in a non-sexual and non-romantical way and after sometime, you feel like having another kind of relation, it is totally different and not creepy at all.
This is terrible advice. Don't listen to it OP! She's sending you down the nice guy friend zone trap!
Where is the trap? There have been tons of women in my life that if celircumstances were (totally) different I would be down for sex, but they aren't. I'm married, they are in committed relationships, and we don't bring it up beyond maybe some silly flirting.
I am happy they are my friends. A couple of them turned me down when circumstances WERE different, but I still value the relationship, as friends. I value their company, and that's enough. I am better off knowing them and I hope they feel the same.
Saying "don't ever express your sexual or romantic interest in women, just be their friend and eventually they'll come around" is the cringy, needy, "nice guy" playbook. It (1) never works, (2) is disingenuous, and (3) never gets you any closer to having any sexual or romantic partners in the long run.
I'm not saying "don't be friends with women". I'm saying - if you are into a girl, make a fucking move. Clearly and openly express your interest and take rejection on the chin. And don't assume that getting romantically rejected means you can't be friends afterwards and use that as an excuse to procrastinate.
That's all true.
Where did I say that?
When one reads the room (or the… sidewalk? the coffee shop?), is clever, and well groomed, and all that…
It’s absolutely possible to speak to strangers in public regardless of whether they’re male or female or whatever. Furthermore, sometimes the immediate response is a positive one instead of a polite but obviously disinterested one.
But oh my GOODNESS do we have to be careful not to be an undue burden on others! (Note some scenarios can’t be helped—people who are DEATHLY afraid of ANYONE talking to them ever are in a bad spot, sorry to those folks, but you may have to ignore a polite sentence from me before I apologize/quickly move on.)
I don’t have good cold approach tips for random places in public, but in a nightclub, can be natural to follow this flow:
Maybe it’s adaptable outside the clurb too.
Do know it definitely helps out there if she has a dog. Only speaking to people when there’s a genuinely natural conversation starter, like a cute dog, is probably pretty safe. Maybe “Whoh did you get that hat from <boutique down the street?>” when you’re actually curious. Curiosity shines through, as does your lack of need for a specific outcome, and can lead to good engagement from someone you’ve made comfortable and perhaps who’s chuffed to have had their fancy accessory complimented. (‘Oh actually my friend made it!’ = nice)
And maybe you’re already walking away as you’re talking, just making it so obvious how little a threat you are, how unlikely you are to be aggressive.
We’re allowed to “be excellent to each other” and we’re allowed to get rejected. Nothing like a good rejection, LOVE knowing I tried. Finally hey, some of earth’s 8 billion inhabitants were married in modern times solely thanks to the guy reasonably approaching a stranger, and none of us could tell his wife she was wrong not to reject him (or that he was a jerk for saying hi).
YOU GOT THIS!
Kindly,
brb
I'm going to echo the suggestion to approach men (and later women) for whatever reason to practice approaching people you don't "have business" with.
Ask a question, comment on something benign (cool shirt?), etc.
And also expand your list of contexts where it's ok to talk to people.
Anywhere that groups of people gather is a good option. Concerts, cafés potentially, parks...as long as you aren't cornering anybody, you should be fine.
I'll make idle conversation with anyone. Some people are down some aren't. I'm rarely trying for a date or romance. I just see where the conversation goes, sometimes to a date or romance.
What are you Amish?
We're autistic bro
Not being able to freely communicate with about half of humanity is definitely a handicap, lol. Nothing that can't be learned though!
Think carefully about the pressures of the situation. For example, a smile is usually good, unless they are on a job where they are made to smile by their employer.
Essentially, you are right that its inappropriate to approach somebody without business. But getting to know somebody is legitimate business.
You are also sort of right that it has to be an appropriate context for chatting. But it doesnt have to be explicit. If you cross paths in a public place, 1 critical factor is how quickly you are both moving. If she is hurrying, not good. If she is relaxed, that is good.
Pay attention to the other person. The other person is the unknown factor, so its alright to focus on understanding their perspective. And its never as simple as interested/not interested. Empathy is clutch here.
Attention is an offer. Some people, especially from sick cultures, can be really mean when they reject an offer. Dont take that personally, its really about how disappointed they are with what they themselves receive.
Oh, you picked everything out perfectly.
What cultures exactly are you talking about?
Think the best advice is that when you talk to a woman in public you should have a reason besides her being a woman in public. Like if a man approached me because he thought my shirt looked cool or he saw me reading a book he liked that's a fine bit of casual conversation. If he just point blank asked if I had a boyfriend as if that's the only reason a woman wouldn't want to date a random man she knows nothing about I'd tell him that was none of his business.
Also, she should be able to remove herself from the conversation if she wants to. If she's at work then she can't do that, for example, but if you're at a public park then she can just walk off. At least that's how I think of it. Obviously I don't ever want to make someone feel like they have to if I'm just trying to chat, but the point is if they have the option then it should be way less likely to wind up that way
I like to talk to a room. i.e. i watch social cues to find an "in" then i try to start a public conversation?
You are both right and you’re both wrong.
I’m right in the middle of yours and your parents age. The dating scene is complete shit today compared to when your parents were in it. I don’t believe they’re likely recognizing how different shit is today vs 30-40 years ago.
I feel like the viewpoint you’re coming from is calculated, safe and fairly accurate for the experiences you’ve likely had in your teen years and early 20’s. More often than not, sticking with what you’ve been doing is going to be considered the more socially graceful, generally appropriate baseline behavior in today’s dating world.
If you were to take the opposite approach, and approach women in places that you’ve previously considered socially unacceptable, there’s a good chance you’d have some success and a good chance you’d deal with some awkward rejections too.
If I were you, I’d try putting myself outside of my comfort zone a couple of times, maybe a city two hours away from where you live. If you’re into anime or comics, go to a con and approach women you’d be uncomfortable approaching otherwise. If you’re into reading at all, go to a bookstore and do this. Everyone needs to eat, supposedly the grocery store is fair game.
Do some social experimenting. Safer to figure out things a bit away from home though if you’re nervous.
Women don't want to be approached in public.
Time to prank your parents. If you have a muncher older friend, have them approach your mom and start hitting on her. Later that night ask her about her day.
First, the mother has been dealing with idiots all her life. She'll probably humiliate the friend more than she'll be bothered.
Second, if the friend is really dumb, they'll get arrested.
I have a different problem - I sometimes perceive extremely attractive women as "usual", until my head is too dizzy with them, and I also sometimes perceive them being kind as flirt, and flirt as being more serious, and being more serious as being kind, and all the combinations, and get confused when they approach me, and in general this leads to trying to start\see possible relationships being a point of pain. I don't want to treat another human being as a piece of nice meat in any fundamental regard. At the same time when a beautiful woman does certain things with her facial muscles, willpower and feel of reality just leave the chat. At the same time she might be a very good person and do that as part of a sincere emotion, so just discarding moments where feel of reality leaves the chat would discard most of women who do that. And the rest would be discarded by fear of not delivering on expectations (not of being nice and smart, that I can accept mostly not being, but of being barely reliable and not again falling into depression or stagnating in personal development or emotional fakery or something like that).
OK, yes, this thread is not for autistic people.
Your parents might be right, you are paying too much attention to the rules. The rules are like a noise canceling filter, you shouldn't apply them for moments important to you. If you really like someone, break the rules, then lick your wounds if she says that was ugly ; she most likely won't. By breaking the rules I don't mean doing anything , just what's not fully appropriate, but not evil. Like - if you lost your phone and need to call someone urgently, how appropriate would it be to approach the first person you see? But is that justified? Relationships are kinda important and rare enough.
Your parents are definitely right.
You are right, your parents are out of touch. Stick to your guns on this.
Human existence is becoming more and more controlled as we lose our autonomy. And either waste our time broken alone or slaving away at a job that doesn't benefit us. Other countries have things like third spaces and culture unlike the United States which has no culture. We don't have the time or the money for culture. So what I'm trying to say is you have to make time to have genuine experiences doing things you like to do in order to stumble upon someone and have a casual conversation. Even these interactions are monetized via apps or whatever. Ad revenue. And these companies that get in between us and our natural experiences are also the same companies that blow up children in other countries. Other than that it is always running to or running from something. The Capitalist meddle too much in our lives. Everyone I know has had divorced parents. And now they want to replace us with artificial intelligence, which is really just our collective work and our human echo of recorded history and contribution. If they literally could just pick us up and bang our body parts together, they would. There is a reason why the birth rate is declining. Things are the way they are for good reasons. We are so separated from nature that we can't feel each other's vibes. I think the kids these days call it vibes. We are all just codependent and not self-actualized. We have lost our sovereignty, our autonomy, and now we just kind of are pushed and pulled in directions to the point where possibly we disassociate. You can go along with all this stuff for a while, but eventually it just snaps in your mind breaks. And they think they're going to draft us to go fight another World War. Just throw me in a box. It's just the same as the other box that I live in. I mean, what kind of future do our future children have? America is not a sexy place. Capitalism is not a sexy system. And now the whole world is capitalistic in nature. There are no alternatives anymore. and the Capitalist have gotten better and better at manipulating all of us. We don't have the time or the money to even plan and fight back. I'm old enough now to see the patterns between the two political parties in the United States. And I will tell you, unless you're kind of like a cult follower of your political party, they will just disappoint you and miss the mark by a mile. They don't work for us. They work for the shareholders. So all that kids have to deal with these days. All these elements, even though they might not acknowledge them, they play a role in mating rituals. You shouldn't have to run up to pretty women to get them to talk to you, or vice-inversal. Every good experience I have had has been through some form of leisure. The word I can think of that reminds me of the current state of things is cringe or icky. Picking up on people's body language. Things that are subtle that take time to grow like a garden. Building relationships, maintaining those relationships, having meaningful conversation. And when trust is built, maybe let loose. I don't know man, it just gets harder. And then you stop caring. Do you want hope? Or the truth?Your parents sold you out and their only concern is if you're gay.